RFC Enlisted Rank Badges - I'm Confused!

[Buffnut453]

I'm trying to identify approximate dates for some photos of a relative based on the presence, or otherwise, of rank badges on his sleeves.  

 

According to this site, the Sergeant rank comprised 3 stripes with a 4-bladed propeller above.  However, I've seen images with just 3 Sergeant stripes with no propeller.  Was the 4-blade prop added as a rank emblem after a particular date or is the absence of the prop simply the individual wearing incorrect uniform?

 

Also, does anyone know when the Flight Sergeant rank changed from 3 stripes with a crown and 4-bladed prop to just 3 stripes with the crown?  I'm guessing it was sometime after 1 April 1918?

 

Many thanks,
Mark

Edited 25 August , 2019 by Buffnut453

[Buffnut453]

 

Ok...clearly I'm either asking a really hard question or I'm not phrasing the question with sufficient clarity.

 

Here's the "official" rank badge for a Sergeant in the RFC:

 

 

Now here's a crop from an image in my collection showing a RFC Sergeant but without the 4-bladed propeller.  

 

The stripes in the cropped image do look rather new and shiny but there's clearly no prop above them.  So...is this sergeant wearing incorrect uniform or did the RFC sergeant rank badge change over time to add the 4-bladed prop?  

 

Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.

Edited 28 August , 2019 by Buffnut453

[Biggles]

G'day Mark,

 

I apologize for a lack of response to your question.  You pose a very interesting dilemma, one I have never even contemplated!  According to what I have seen and read, both types of Sergeant's insignia were worn.  Perhaps it has something to do with the Sergeant's trade or profession?  I am sorry I cannot shed more light on the fact.

Best of luck!

 

Cheerio,

Caleb

[jay dubaya]

Always thought the propeller indicated a Pilot as opposed to an Observer, this badge dropped as you say post April 1918 and picked up by Leading Aircraftman.

 

J

[squirrel]

The subject in the photo is wearing a greatcoat. Propeller badge worn on the "maternity" jacket but not the greatcoat perhaps?

[Buffnut453]

Here's an Observer still with the 4-blade prop sometime after July 1919:

 

 

In short, I'm still confused... :-)

 

12 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Always thought the propeller indicated a Pilot as opposed to an Observer, this badge dropped as you say post April 1918 and picked up by Leading Aircraftman.

 

J

 

J,

 

Per the image above, the badge continued until well into 1919.  I have several photos of a relative from the summer of 1919 still wearing the 4-blade prop and he was a Sgt Mech then a Sgt Pilot.  

 

Cheers,
Mark

Edited 12 September , 2019 by Buffnut453

[Buffnut453]

10 hours ago, squirrel said:

The subject in the photo is wearing a greatcoat. Propeller badge worn on the "maternity" jacket but not the greatcoat perhaps?

 

That's a distinct possibility...although I think it odd to have 2 different styles of rank based solely on the uniform being worn.  

[Biggles]

I believe both are relevant, as photos depict all sorts of uniform patterns with or without the propellor. 

It's an interesting question, indeed!

 

Cheerio,

Caleb

 

[RFT]

Flight Sergeant, May 1914 (AO174/14) = 3 chevrons surmounted by a medium-sized crown above a star boss 4-bladed propeller.

Sergeants, May 1914 (AO174/14) = plain 4-bladed propeller added above their stripes.

Edited 14 September , 2019 by RFT

[SamCurt]

If we're posting pictures...

 

36222 Sergeant Mechanic Harry Robert Wilson, promoted to this RAF rank on 1 August 1918, wef 1 July 1918, but still with RFC badges

 

 

Sam

[Buffnut453]

It would appear that there's no clear reason for the lack of the 4-blade prop.  It's clear that the rank markings were defined pre-war so the variability presumably came from shortage of the 4-blade prop at certain units at certain times.  Equally, the RFC rank markings persisted for quite a long time, at least 8-9 months, after the RAF was formed.  

 

I fear there may be little more to add to the discussion, unless someone has unearthed a specific directive to the contrary of the pre-war rank badge definitions.  

[Buffnut453]

I just received a copy of "A Contemptible Little Flying Corps".  On p.500 in the section covering uniforms and badges, it states "A four-bladed propeller had been introduced in 1913 to indicate that the wearer was a specialist."  

 

It also remarks that "In Army Order 322 of 1916 a two-bladed propeller was authorised for 1AMs who had qualified for the distinction [of specialist] by trade-testing, and were not eligible for promotion until they had passed."  

 

So, if I take that passage at face value, a Sergeant may have just worn chevrons if he was not considered a specialist.  Also, 1AM wore nothing on their sleeves until sometime in 1916, which means photos of my relative with no rank markings visible could data any time from his enlistment on 4 Feb 1915 thru to 1 Jul 1916 when he was appointed A/Cpl.

[Raine]

The four-bladed propeller was worn to indicate a flight sergeant.

[Biggles]

Welcome to the forum!

A crown was worn to indicate Flight Sergeant.  The propellor was worn in between the crown and stripes to indicate RFC, and was supposedly worn above those of Corporal and Sergeant as well, although not always as we previously discussed above.  Attached is a picture of Flight Sergeant.

 

Caleb

 

Edited 18 September , 2019 by Biggles

[Raine]

Thanks, Biggles!

[Guest]

A late addition to this thread, but when did the attached metal Flight Engineer badge start being used as apposed to the cloth version?

[FROGSMILE]

My understanding is that the four-prop propellers were introduced in accordance with common Army practice as an arm badge for SNCOs to mark their arm of service.  This followed the gun used by all branches of the Royal Regiment of Artillery and the grenade used by the Corps of Royal Engineers, from whom the RFC evolved.  
From memory I don’t think that Lance Sergeants, who were substantive Corporals appointed as Sergeant on a pro tem basis, wore the arm badges in order to mark their inferior status.  Perhaps others can comment if they know anything of this too.  It should be kept in mind that until 1st April 1918 the RFC was fundamentally a part of the Army and normal practices of dress and protocol applied.

NB.  As regards greatcoats it’s true that clothing regulations stipulated that skill-at-arms badges should not be worn on greatcoats, but that did not apply to arm badges intended to mark the arm of service. 

Edited 2 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[thedawnpatrol]

These in my collection 

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, thedawnpatrol said:

These in my collection 

A great collection, thank you for posting them.  At that time warrant officers were the only ranks that did not wear SNCO arm badges (they were intended to be a cut above) but that was much later changed. Well after formation of RAF.