Norfolk WW1 ASC & RE units

[Norfolksapper]

Has anybody got any information on TF ASC and RE units based or raised in Norfolk in WW1 I have info on the 34th Division companies raised in Norwich in 2015 but I’m interested in territorial units. I know both Norwich and KL had units of ASC and there is of course the excellent info here but the information beyond is sketchy besides drill hall info.

[brianmorris547]

The 1916 War Diary for the Commander RE 34 Div names other rank casualties as do the 1916 WDs for 207 Field Co and 209 Field Co. The Signals Co has a nominal roll in January 1916. 208 FC does not name names. Are you looking for anyone in particular, I may have him on my 1916/17 RE index.

Brian

Edited 21 August , 2019 by brianmorris547
typo

[Norfolksapper]

Hi Brian thanks nobody in particular I’m just trying to establish what units were based where but I’d be keen to get any lists of names you might have please.

[PRC]

Locally raised ASC detachments.

 

As you are probably aware the 4th and 5th Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment were pre-war part of the Norfolk & Suffolk Brigade of the Territorial Force, supported by TF detachments of the ASC, including those at Kings Lynn and Downham Market in the county. With mobilisation on Britains' declaration of war, those infantry battalions would shortly split into 1st and 2nd Line units, with the 1st4th and 1st/5th  being part of 54th (East Anglian Division).

 

The Long Long Trail page for that Division shows that the initial ASC units of the Divisional Train were "483, 484, 485 and 486 Companies ASC, the original Train did not sail with the Division. It transferred to join 27th Division for service in Salonika."

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/54th-east-anglian-division/

 

I had a quick look at the casualties for each of those units shown on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. I wouldn't want to read to much in to it, but there is a Corporal Wheeler T4/160608 Charles Leaford of 486th Coy. 27th Div. Train, Army Service Corps who died on the 24th September 1918. The additional information given is that he was the son of Wallace and Jane Leaford, of King's Lynn, Norfolk.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/332620/leaford,-charles/

 

I couldn't see anyone on the Roll of Honour page for Downham Market that was obviously a pre-war Territorial in the ASC, but such units were regularly combed for men who met the ever lowering physical standard for infantrymen, and so its possible they could have been in the ASC but the surviving paperwork like MiCs and Service Medal Rolls don't give that information.

 

The 1912 edition of Kelly's Drectory of Norfolk only lists the 5th Battalion at the Drill Hall at Downham Market. The entry for Kings Lynn reads

Army Service Corps, Norfolk & Suffolk Brigade Co. Tuesday Market Place

Commanding Capt. E.R. Hawkins

Sergt.-Major Instructor C.Holloway.

This seems to be a separate establishment to those catering for the Kings Own Royal Norfolk Yeomanry, (D Squadron) and the 5th (A Company) and 6th (C Company) of the Norfolk Regiment.

http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/248272

 

ASC stationed here.

 

There were several Divisions based in Norfolk over the course of the war, plus depots, hospital support, remounts, labour, etc. I believe the ASC  even ran the light tramway from the Boulton & Paul works on Riverside, Norwich up to the Aeroplane Acceptance Park up on Mousehold Heath. But off the top of my head the only ones I can think that were Territorial Force based were the Mounted Divisions - the original 2nd Mounted Division and then the 2/2nd Mounted Division. 

 

The first unit was based around North Walsham from November 1914 to April 1915. The second was based across North Norfolk from Dereham to Aylsham from March 1915 onwards until it was broken up towards the end of 1916.

 

See http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-mounted-division/

and (in the absence of the 2/2 Mounted Division which is currently being rewritten) see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/city-of-london-yeomanry-rough-riders/

 

I'll come back to you on the Royal Engineers, but for now I assume you're aware there is a memorial in the cloisters of Norwich Cathedral to the men of the R.E. Field Companys of the 34th Division - although as you say, they were not Territorial Force units.

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Norfolk/NorwichCathedral34thNfkDivRE.html

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 21 August , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[Norfolksapper]

Thanks for all this Peter best regards

[Norfolksapper]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

Locally raised ASC detachments.

 

As you are probably aware the 4th and 5th Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment were pre-war part of the Norfolk & Suffolk Brigade of the Territorial Force, supported by TF detachments of the ASC, including those at Kings Lynn and Downham Market in the county. With mobilisation on Britains' declaration of war, those infantry battalions would shortly split into 1st and 2nd Line units, with the 1st4th and 1st/5th  being part of 54th (East Anglian Division).

 

The Long Long Trail page for that Division shows that the initial ASC units of the Divisional Train were "483, 484, 485 and 486 Companies ASC, the original Train did not sail with the Division. It transferred to join 27th Division for service in Salonika."

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/54th-east-anglian-division/

 

I had a quick look at the casualties for each of those units shown on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website. I wouldn't want to read to much in to it, but there is a Corporal Wheeler T4/160608 Charles Leaford of 486th Coy. 27th Div. Train, Army Service Corps who died on the 24th September 1918. The additional information given is that he was the son of Wallace and Jane Leaford, of King's Lynn, Norfolk.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/332620/leaford,-charles/

 

I couldn't see anyone on the Roll of Honour page for Downham Market that was obviously a pre-war Territorial in the ASC, but such units were regularly combed for men who met the ever lowering physical standard for infantrymen, and so its possible they could have been in the ASC but the surviving paperwork like MiCs and Service Medal Rolls don't give that information.

 

The 1912 edition of Kelly's Drectory of Norfolk only lists the 5th Battalion at the Drill Hall at Downham Market. The entry for Kings Lynn reads

Army Service Corps, Norfolk & Suffolk Brigade Co. Tuesday Market Place

Commanding Capt. E.R. Hawkins

Sergt.-Major Instructor C.Holloway.

This seems to be a separate establishment to those catering for the Kings Own Royal Norfolk Yeomanry, (D Squadron) and the 5th (A Company) and 6th (C Company) of the Norfolk Regiment.

http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/248272

 

ASC stationed here.

 

There were several Divisions based in Norfolk over the course of the war, plus depots, hospital support, remounts, labour, etc. I believe the ASC  even ran the light tramway from the Boulton & Paul works on Riverside, Norwich up to the Aeroplane Acceptance Park up on Mousehold Heath. But off the top of my head the only ones I can think that were Territorial Force based were the Mounted Divisions - the original 2nd Mounted Division and then the 2/2nd Mounted Division. 

 

The first unit was based around North Walsham from November 1914 to April 1915. The second was based across North Norfolk from Dereham to Aylsham from March 1915 onwards until it was broken up towards the end of 1916.

 

See http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/2nd-mounted-division/

and (in the absence of the 2/2 Mounted Division which is currently being rewritten) see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/city-of-london-yeomanry-rough-riders/

 

I'll come back to you on the Royal Engineers, but for now I assume you're aware there is a memorial in the cloisters of Norwich Cathedral to the men of the R.E. Field Companys of the 34th Division - although as you say, they were not Territorial Force units.

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Norfolk/NorwichCathedral34thNfkDivRE.html

 

Cheers,

Peter

Peter I have a man ASC I suspect enlisting in Norwich who according to the index card (not concrete proof) arrived in France 15/07/15 George Moore T4-084388. I did wonder if he was 12th division but he’s too late arriving. 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Norfolksapper said:

I have a man ASC I suspect enlisting in Norwich who according to the index card (not concrete proof) arrived in France 15/07/15 George Moore T4-084388. I did wonder if he was 12th division but he’s too late arriving. 

 

I assume this is completely separate to your query about TF ASC units as that is not a Territorial Force number nor is there anything on the card to indicate he was Territorial Force - even the (Discharge to) Class Z 14-3-19 strikes me more as a wartime service enlistment rather than even an enlistment in the Territorial Force in the opening months of the war.

 

You may want to consider raising a separate thread so that you (a) attract the interests of the ASC afficiandoes (b)don't get answers on this thread that cut across each other.

 

Either way, let us know what you have about him, (age \ family \ address, etc and whether you have tried the 1918 & 1919 Absent Voters Lists, (there are copies at the Forum in the Local Studies section and, I believe, copies at the County Hall Archive).

 

Cheers,

Peter

[ss002d6252]

I'd agree with Peter - the evidence tends towards a war time enlistment on a short service/DoW term rather than a TF enlistment.

Craig