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Remembered Today:


Deborah Nobbs

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I wonder if anyone can help me?

 

As you've probably seen from my previous posts, I am the Administrator at the Royal Garrison Church of All Saints, Aldershot and I am researching into the memorials which are in the church.

 

I am still looking at the 13 Hussars during the Great War and wondered if anyone had any information and pictures on 2 young Privates from Wales who were decorated for their courage during the units time in Mesopotamia.

 

They are:

Private Alexander Owen who was awarded the Military Medal (23686)

Private John Lloyd Roberts who was awarded the DCM. (6166)

 

One was from Pontypridd and the other Cardiff.

 

I look forward to hearing from you all.

 

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Deborah, according to the regimental history (The Thirteenth Hussars in the Great War, by the Rt Hon Sir Mortimer Durand, GCMG, KCSI, KCIE, Blackwood 1921):

 

Owen's MM appears to be in respect of some heavy fighting near Tuz (about 150 miles north of Baghdad), which involved a full=scale charge resulting in 150 Turkish dead, 538 prisoners and 2 mountain guns being taken. Owen seems to have died a couple of days after the regiment recevived notification of his award (Order of the Day 105, dated 18th May 1918.

 

Roberts' DCM appears to result from the regiment, patrolling to the north east of Baghdad (about 100 miles) at Deli Abbas, when they unexpectedly bumped the 13th Turkish Army Corps (of about 28,000 men!). As might be expected, this resulted in a rearguard action and withdrawal to support. Roberts appears to have died of wounds a couple of days after the action.

 

No citations in the book for either award, I'm afraid.

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37 minutes ago, Deborah Nobbs said:

Private John Lloyd Roberts who was awarded the DCM. (6166)

 

His DCM MiC at the National Archive shows the award gazetted on the 29th August 1917.

 

Citation reads "This man volunteered to go out and bring in some wounded. This he did twice, carrying them a considerable distance, though under machine-gun fire the whole way."

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30259/supplement/8998/data.pdf

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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Deborah,

 

Alexander Owen (23686) was born in Cardiff in 1896, the son of Edward and Cecilia Ann Owen and lived with his parents at 151 Treharris Street, Roath, Cardiff. He was a typewriting apprentice at some point before the war. 

 

He is mentioned in  "Roath Road Roamer" (1914-1919), a special wartime parish magazine for the Roath Road Methodist Church. The December 1915 edition has a photograph of him, while the July and November 1918 editions also refer to him. He enlisted early in the war and initially served on the Western Front. The Nov. 1918 edition says that he was awarded his MM "posthumously" but Steven explains above the actual circumstances. 

 

According to another local parish magazine of June 1918, he had been previously wounded when serving in France.

 

Glamorgan Archives have a copy of the RRR, so they may be able to help you with his photograph. 

 

"Alec", as he seems to have been known, had an older brother William John Owen, who was killed in action near Ypres on 9th August 1915 serving in the 2nd Bn. York and Lancaster Regiment. Interestingly, "Soldiers Died in the Great War" lists him as "formerly 23687 Hussars", so it looks as though the two brothers joined up together.

Both were commemorated on the Roath Road war memorial but this fell into disrepair after the church was bombed in the 1940s. They were also listed on a memorial in St. Anne's Church (now closed) Roath and are commemorated on the memorial in St Edward's Church Roath. 

 

Gwyn.

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Soldiers Died in the Great War records that Private 6166 John Lloyd Roberts, 13th Hussars, was born, resident and enlisted at Pontypridd.

 

His Commonwealth War Graves Commission webpage adds that he was 25 when he died on the 10th April 1917 and was the son of Edward and Harriet Roberts, of 26, Leyshon St., Graig, Pontypridd, Glam.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/635023/roberts,-john-lloyd/

 

That age at the time of death would place his date of birth as circa 1891 – 1892.

 

The birth of a John Lloyd Roberts, mothers’ maiden name Roberts, was recorded with the Civil Authorities in the Pontypridd District of Glamorganshire in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1891.

I couldn’t find an online baptism for him on familysearch or freereg.

Looking at the Civil birth registrations for the other children listed on the 1901 & 1911 Censuses there are candidates for children registered with surname Roberts mothers maiden name Roberts, so likely this is a case of Roberts married Roberts rather than an unmarried mother.

 

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 9 year old John L. Roberts, born Pontypridd, who was recorded living at 47 Leyshon Street, Pontypridd. This was the household of his parents Edward, (39, Underground Fireman(?), born Mold, Flint) and Harriet, (39, born Mold, Flint).  The couple have three other children.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 19 year old Private John Lloyd Roberts, born Pontypridd, who was recorded in barracks at Shorncliffe Camp, Elham, Kent with the 11th Hussars.

 

His family were now at 54 Leyshon Street, Graig, Pontypridd, although head of the household is the 49 year old widow Harriet Roberts. Harriet states she has been married 26 years and has had 8 children, of which 6 were then still alive.

 

In trying to establish when John might have enlisted through his service number, it is important to know:-

 

In December 1906, Army Order 289 changed the numbering for cavalry of the line. Prior to this, all cavalry regiments had numbered individually by regiments. Now, line cavalry and household cavalry were separated; each of the three line cavalry corps – dragoons, hussars, and lancers – beginning a new number series which started at 1 and was to extend to 49,999.

What this meant for the 11th Hussars was that from late December 1906 they began a new number sequence which they shared with the all of the Hussars regiments:

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2014/02/11th-prince-alberts-own-hussars.html

 

Unforturtunately the only example quoted on Paul Nixons’ site is for 4840 issued on the 1st November 1909.

http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/03/cavalry-numbering-1906.html

However given that it had taken 3 years to get to that point in the number range it would seem likely that 6166 would have been issued by the end of 1910.

 

The Army Register of Soldiers Effects (on Ancestry) will show who the balance of his pay and his war gratuity were paid to.

 

3 hours ago, Aneurin said:

Alexander Owen (23686) was born in Cardiff in 1896, the son of Edward and Cecilia Ann Owen and lived with his parents at 151 Treharris Street, Roath, Cardiff. He was a typewriting apprentice at some point before the war. 

 

Just to confirm that on the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 14 year old Alexander Owen was recorded as a Typewriting Apprentice. The family were then living at 124 Cyfartha Street, Cardiff. His parents Edward and Cecilia Ann have been married 17 years, which probably means that the relevant marriage is that of an Edward Owen to a Cecilia Ann Jones which took place in the Cardiff District in the October to December quarter of 1893.

 

The birth of an Alexander Owen, (mothers maiden name not available on the access I have), was recorded in the Cardiff District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1896.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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Deborah, I gave you the link to the History of 13th Hussars (free on archive;org) , that Steven refers to above, in your previous thread.

 

This is the text re Roberts:

On May 4th we received orders to march down to Chaldari
and there pitch our summer camp. We accordingly marched to Sa
Salekh and from here to Chaldari, where we proceeded to erect our
summer camp on the left bank of the Tigris some nine miles north
of Baghdad. On the camp being completed, we went into it on the
13th inst., and on the same day the following awards appeared in
our Regimental Orders for gallantry in our action of 9th April :
Lieutenant Fitz-Gibbon the M.C. and Private Roberts the D.C.M.
Private Roberts died from the wounds he received the day following
the action.

 

There is also a photo

1278039810_GWF13HussarsRobertsJLphoto.JPG.e07270e181d0e4cac0456109ff37d50b.JPG

 

Charlie

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a picture of Owen and his brother who was killed in action in France. I will post the relevant photo in the next 48 hours....

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