RFA to RE transfer help

[Jojessholli]

Hi Guys - I need some help.

 

My grandfather was with the 2/3 South midland RFA (307th Field Artillery) regimental number 2204, 836037, but sometime during the war he was moved to the RE, regimental number 499986.  Can anyone tell me when the transfer most likely happened from the RFA to the RE?  Was this a post war move as his RE number seems to refer to June 1917 - he seems to have moved without any apparent reason (i.e after a wounded/sickness).  I'm assuming its a compulsory order, but the most likely time of this happening is my real concern.  Any help would be most welcome.

 

Regards

Vic

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Vic

 

The most likely explanation is that he was a signaller with his battery or artillery brigade. A number of these men were transferred to the RE Signal Service (later to become the Royal Corps of Signals), probably in 1917 or 1918.

 

Ron

[travers61]

My GG Uncle was a signaller in the Devonshire Regiment, and during the war was transfered to the Royal Engineers in the same trade.

[Jojessholli]

Thanks guys - he was a driver with the RFA (hence why I think it was a compulsory order) - it's been baffling me for weeks.

[David26]

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 17:13, Ron Clifton said:

Hello Vic

 

The most likely explanation is that he was a signaller with his battery or artillery brigade. A number of these men were transferred to the RE Signal Service (later to become the Royal Corps of Signals), probably in 1917 or 1918.

 

Ron

 

Like others, I have been wrestling with the transfer of RFA men into the RE and am still trying to grasp the detail of how and when this came about but with no success.  I've recently found reference to a "decision" that was apparently taken in the "winter of 1916-17" to transfer responsibility for RFA signals down to - but not including - battery-level to the RE Signals Sections and that the establishment for a signals section attached to such a brigade would comprise 1 officer and 19 men.  (Source: "Communications and British Operations on the Western Front, 1914–1918" available online from the Cambridge Core here which quotes as its source for this information: Nalder, Royal Corps of Signals, 118–19; ‘History of the Development and Work of the Directorate of Organisation. August, 1914-December, 1918’, 494, WO162/6, TNA.)

 

But I was wondering if anyone might possibly have any more precise information such as:

• was this decision promulgated in an Army Order?
• when did it come into effect?
• was there a wholesale transfer of men from the RFA to the RE on or about the same date?
• did the new RE Signals Section become formally part of the establishment of an RFA Bde in the same way that RAMC and AVC personnel appear to be listed as such?

David.

[David Porter]

I've tried to encapsulate what happened in the following text:

 

The signallers with brigades in Divisions were absorbed by the RA Signal Sub Section of the Divisional Signal Company, those allotted to Army Brigades

were independent units. When the units became entirely Signal Service units, in May 1917, the RA personnel were transferred to the Signal Service as 
Sappers. The Divisional Signal Company also provided a small detachment, as Sappers or Pioneers, to RA Headquarters (1 Officer and 16 ORs plus a

batman by 1918)

The following RH & RFA Army Brigades created Signal Sub-sections:

First Army
18, 26, 52, 77, 126, 147, 175, 189, 242, 277, 282, 293, 311
Second Army
11, 23, 28, 38, 64, 96, 113, 119
Third Army
14 RHA, 34, 72, 76, 93, 155, 169, 315
Fourth Army
5 RHA, 16 RHA, 5, 14, 48, 65, 84, 86, 101, 232, 298
Fifth Army
108, 150, 158, 179

These 44 sections served entirely in France. The sections were formed with a nucleus of Signal Service personnel (Royal Engineers) to which were attached

RA signallers. The establishment of each being 1 Officer and 19 ORs until 2 despatch riders were added in 1918

 

Corrections or modifications accepted.
 

[Terry_Reeves]

His RE  TF number was issued to him in 1917 or later. It was allocated to 476 Field Company, part of 61st (2nd South Midland) Division.

 

 

 

TR

 

Edited 8 January , 2020 by Terry_Reeves

[David26]

David, Terry,

 

Thank you both.

 

So, if I understand you correctly, David, for divisional artillery brigades, the RA signallers at brigade HQ would have transferred in May 1917 into the Divisional Signals Company as a section within that company and the Signals Officer would presumably have also have been transferred into it (or perhaps being officers just 'attached' to the RE?). 

 

That timing fits well with the Nalder statement above about the decision being taken the previous winter and with what timings I've been able to discern in the handful of men I've stumbled across who made the transfer. 

[Terry_Reeves]

David,

 

I am not at all convinced he was a signaller. There has been an assumption made early in the thread and this seems to have caught hold without any evidence.

 

TR

 

Edited 8 January , 2020 by Terry_Reeves

[Jojessholli]

On 08/01/2020 at 22:44, Terry_Reeves said:

David,

 

I am not at all convinced he was a signaller. There has been an assumption made early in the thread and this seems to have caught hold without any evidence.

 

TR

 

Hi Terry - if you mean my grandfather, he was a pioneer according to the records not a signaller.  My understanding is that this move happened late 1918 not 1917 - so may well have been simply a reorganisation of units prior to returning home as the war had ended rather than him actually serving in the RE during war time.

[Terry_Reeves]

23 minutes ago, Jojessholli said:

Hi Terry - if you mean my grandfather, he was a pioneer according to the records not a signaller.  My understanding is that this move happened late 1918 not 1917 - so may well have been simply a reorganisation of units prior to returning home as the war had ended rather than him actually serving in the RE during war time.

I agree, but some of the submissions in the thread suggested he was. I was  just making the point.

 

TR