9th Gordon Regiment (A company)? pioneer batalion

[Von]

Good morning,

 

This is my first post so please let me know if this is best posted elsewhere.

 

I have been researching my Grandfather William Walker who served in 9th Gordon Highlanders (Also Argyle and Sutherland highlanders, but Gordon's quoted most often)

 

His service record does not exist sadly but last night I did unexpectedly discover that he was in the 18th field hospital admitted 4th March 1918 with what would seem to be trench foot of both feet. This record suggests he had been in service for 1 year and with the "field force" for 7 months (not sure what this means, ? Time in Active service). It also says he was in "A" company. He stayed in the field hospital for 41 days and then was discharged back to active service.

 

Now this helps me narrow down any further research into his war story which until I knew this felt quite daunting. There does not seem to be much easily accessible info on the 9th Gordon's online. 

 

Please could someone point me in the right direction to research what his regiment were up to in the years he was in service. So from an active service point if view from about Aug 1917 to the end of the war I guess. 

 

My little bit of research so far online this morning suggests his regiment would have been providing support services to the front line troups such as trench maintenance. This would make sense as he was "older" at 37 and worked as a builder and road construction labourer. 

 

I have been trying to see if the war diaries exist for this period but struggling to work it out on the national archives site. 

 

Thank you in advance for any help.

Kind regards

Von

 

Edited 18 August , 2019 by Von

[rolt968]

9 Gordon Highlanders was a service (war time raised) battalion. It was the pioneer battalion of 15 (Scottish) Division. There are more details here:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/gordon-highlanders/

 

I expect that the "field force" refers to service with the British Expeditionary Force in France. "In service" probably means his time in the army. (One year in total, seven months in France.)

 

The war diary of 9 Gordon Highlanders is available through The National Archives or ancestry:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=9+Gordon+Highlanders&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=WO+95&_col=200&_hb=tna

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/ukwardiarieswwi/?f-F0007CF4=Gordon+Highlanders&f-F00088EF=9th+Battalion

 

You will be able to find out what the battalion was doing, but reference to individual other ranks are unusual.

 

I hope this is of some use.

 

As a matter of interest "in service" and "field force" are quite common phrases in newspaper reports of a man's service. Is that where you found them?

 

RM

[kenf48]

Hello and welcome to the forum,

 

It would be enormously helpful if you post his regimental number.  As you have been directed to the LLT suggest you also have a look around the site especially the section on researching a soldier.

 

The fact he was in service for a year shows he was conscripted (or was a late Derby Scheme entrant) in March 1917 which was the height of the post 1916 'manpower crisis'.  Service with the field force means he went on active service overseas and joined the army in the field (i.e.the BEF) seven months prior to his admission to hospital, this would be August/September as TNA have split the diary for downloading I'd suggest you go from September.  Though you would have to do at least 5 downloads to get the whole picture.  Ancestry would be a better bet if you subscribe.

 

There is a book on Pioneer Battalions in the Great War, well worth a read.https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pioneer-Battalions-Great-War-Mitchinson/dp/1783461799

 

Ken

[rolt968]

There is an entry in the Medal and Award Rolls 1914-1920 (ancestry)for a Pte. William Walker, S/19433 - 11 Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders and S/41365 - 9 Gordon Highlanders could that be him?

RM

[Ron Clifton]

34 minutes ago, Von said:

I did unexpectedly discover that he was in the 18th field hospital admitted 4th March 1918

Hello Von, and welcome to the Forum!

 

"18th Field Hospital" was not a designation used by the British Army. It could be one of these:

- 18th Field Ambulance

- 18th Casualty Clearing Station

- 18th Stationary Hospital

- 18th General Hospital

Can you check your source to find out which of these it was?

 

Ron

[Von]

Hi Thank you all for your quick replies...

 

Yes it is William Walker 41365 and also 19433. He was born in  Darlington 1883. 

 

I have his medal card and also the medal roll.

Last night I was searching FMP and found the record of his hospital admission in March1918.

 

Does conscription mean he was told to sign up... sorry for being a bit naive on such matters.

 

The reference to field force was on the admission register to the field hospital.

 

I didn't realise the war diary was on ancestry... I will take a look.

 

Are there any other places I can look?

 

Thank you all again... very helpful.

 

Von

 

 

[rolt968]

Yes, conscription means that he was compelled to join up.

The war diary for 11 A&SH will also be available through ancestry.

In the hospital admission record was he in the Gordon Highlanders or the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders? The Medal Roll gives the impression that he was in the Argylls first.

RM

[Von]

47 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

"18th Field Hospital" was not a designation used by the British Army. It could be one of these:

- 18th Field Ambulance

- 18th Casualty Clearing Station

- 18th Stationary Hospital

- 18th General Hospital

Can you check your source to find out which of these it was?

 

Hi, 

Yes you are correct, it was the 18th General Hospital.

Do you know where I might find out more about it, where it was etc.

Thank you.

Von

[Von]

36 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Yes, conscription means that he was compelled to join up.

The war diary for 11 A&SH will also be available through ancestry.

In the hospital admission record was he in the Gordon Highlanders or the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders? The Medal Roll gives the impression that he was in the Argylls first.

 

Thank you.

When in the general hospital he was in Gordon's. I assume people were moved when numbers were low. Maybe he trained with Argyle and Sutherland and moved to Gordon's for active service? We will likely never know.

 

I will have a browse through the diary and see what info I can find. Even if there is nothing specific to my Grandfather at least I can have a good idea of what he may have been  up to. And also pay my respects to the other servicemen while doing so. 

 

These little snipets are so great to find, the only two personal things I know about him are that he hated being in the trenches in his kilt because it got so heavy and wet and he learned to play the bagpipes. Dad now thinks he can also remember being told his dad had trench foot. That and playing with his dads bayonet in the back yard as a kid 😳...

 

If anyone comes up with other helpful sources please let me know.

 

BW

Von

[rolt968]

I asked about his unit when he was in hospital because sometimes men were not returned to the same unit if there was a more urgent need in another unit. Not in this case I think.

 

In theory at least, if a unit name appears against his name in the Medal Roll, he served in that unit (however briefly) in France. He can't have trained with 11 A&SH in the UK as they were already in France. However he could have been reallocated after arriving in France.

 

Had you noticed that the man whose name appears above his in the Medal Roll was also formerly in 11 A&SH?

 

RM

[RussT]

You will spot from his medal roll that quite a few men transferred from the A&SH to 9/GH, being given consecutive GH service numbers indicative of them transferring at the same time.

 

You can then look for surviving service records for other men with similar GH numbers to see if a pattern emerges from which you can draw conclusions as to movements of your man.

 

For example, there is a record for Robert Taylor S/20557 AS&H who was transferred to the GH (being given the GH number of 41359) on 12/08/1917 at 19/IBD Etaples and then joined 9/GH in the field on 15/08/1917.

 

It is likely that your man followed this same route, so looking at the 9/GH war diary from 15/08/1917 would be the way to go on that part of his service.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[RussT]

Bingo !

 

You are very lucky as the 9/GH war diary has their Part II Battalion Orders extant.

 

Here a snippet (courtesy of Ancestry) from the 9/GH WD Appendix for August 1917 showing the draft arriving on 15/08/1918 including S/41365 Walker, W.

 

 

[Von]

Ha - you got there before me  - I haver realised how good the diaries are for the 9th and was just browsing August and nearly there to find this... it was literals the next page for me to click on.

 

Well done - they are quite detailed - it is going to be worth browsing the whole collection as there is detail of punishments and comendments etc for all ranks it seems. 

 

I can't thank you enough - I have lots of other servicemen to check out there service records to see what happened to them.

 

Von

Edited 18 August , 2019 by Von

[RussT]

It's also a good example of men being re-numbered in surname alphabetical order.

 

Also to note that it appears he was sent to the BEF (19/IBD) on 29/07/1917 from the 3rd (Reserve) Bn A & SH - so he was posted to the 11/A & SH for book keeping purposes only whilst he completed his training for a couple of weeks at Etaples before being transferred to the GH in that draft.

 

Your next stop is to look for records of men with similar A &SH numbers to explore when he enlisted into the unit.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[MaxD]

Loose end.  18 General Hospital was at Camiers on the French coast near to Boulogne.  At the time it was run for the allies by the American army.  The war diary gets a bit mixed up in Match 1918 but it can be determined that they were working in the Arras area and the battalion orders list him as having been sent to the field ambulance on 28 Feb1918.  It doesn't say which one, the division had 3.  This would have been fairly local to where he was working at the time,  He would have been treated there first and then evacuated either via a Casualty Clearing Station or perhaps directly to the hospital.

 

It may be that a diligent search of battalion orders may show when/if  he returned to the battalion.

 

There are a number of threads on the forum that will tell you what a pioneer battalion did, search "Pioneer Battalions"

 

Max

 

 

[Von]

Thank you Max and Russ

 

I have found him returning to the GH on 26th April 1918 in the diaries - he is down as F Walker but his service number is correct. - this seems to be after the unit had moved to Chamblain-Chantelain the day previously and the day before they moved again to Bois Du Reviellon. There is almost too much to take on board - I need a map.

 

I will have a good look at the Pioneer Battalions on the internet - but it is very clear from these diaries that they were repairing roads, digging and repairing trenches and building shelters.

 

Russ - I am not sure where you got the information regarding him being sent to the BEF on 29/7/19 with the A&SH - is this from the A&SH diaries???

 

Thank you ALL again

BW

 

Yvonne

Edited 18 August , 2019 by Von

[MaxD]

Bois de Reveillon http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A4282/-/collection top left  Bethune is directly to the east 

 

Courtesy Google Earth attached

 

 

Edited 18 August , 2019 by MaxD
edit screenshot

[RussT]

26 minutes ago, Von said:

Russ - I am not sure where you got the information regarding him being sent to the BEF on 29/7/19 with the A&SH - is this from the A&SH diaries???

 

I got that from the service record of one of the other men who similarly transferred. It's not proof but it is likely they had all been kept together probably with the intention of joining an A &SH service battalion one in France but events and needs took over and they were re-directed to the GH at the IBD. This was very common during this stage of the war.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[Von]

11 minutes ago, RussT said:

 

I got that from the service record of one of the other men who similarly transferred. It's not proof but it is likely they had all been kept together probably with the intention of joining an A &SH service battalion one in France but events and needs took over and they were re-directed to the GH at the IBD. This was very common during this stage of the war.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

Thank you 

[Von]

22 hours ago, RussT said:

 

I got that from the service record of one of the other men who similarly transferred. It's not proof but it is likely they had all been kept together probably with the intention of joining an A &SH service battalion one in France but events and needs took over and they were re-directed to the GH at the IBD. This was very common during this stage of the war.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

Hi Russ,

 

Given the help you all gave me yesterday I just wanted to keep you updated and ask a couple more questions.

 

Having now looked the the A&SH diary - which is hard to read and not as detailed  - it appears that 100 + men joined them in the first week or two of August but there were concerns mentioned that many of them were poorly trained. It is clear from their diary that the A&SH were being heavily utilised for front line offensives at the time and although there is no specific mention of it, it may be reasonable to assume that the less prepared men were moved to the 9th Gordons for pioneer work. I would assume that a less well trained serviceman would be more of a risk if there was no time to train them to the required standard. Is this reasonable to assume???

 

Reading on in the diary for the 9th Gordons into the September it would seem that the pioneers were sometimes utilised on the front line to temporarily hold positions during offensives while the other troops moved forward. But most of the work seems to have been road maintenance and trench digging/maintenance, often in very difficult situations. There is a lot of detail about what they did and exactly where, including when and were they moved camp and the schedule for breakfast, cleaning the billets, rout and order of march. It really is fascinating. 

 

I don't know if you are able to help me understand the grid references mentioned meticulously in the 9th Gordons Diary - do you know to which maps these might refer or where I may be able to find out? There are details right down to which trenches they were working on, on what days and where specifically these trenches were.

 

I am also struggling to work out which service man you were able to locate the service record for - I can't seem to find the service record for any of the men who were transferred to the Gordons at the same time.

 

BW

 

Von

 

Edited 19 August , 2019 by Von

[MaxD]

Regarding the map references.  Both this https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/ and this  http://www.greatwar.co.uk/research/maps/british-army-ww1-trench-maps.htm cover the subject in detail (the former is perhaps more readable).

 

Key is knowing which map sheet the reference is on.  Sometimes it may be in the diary as "Sheet 57B NW" or similar.  Otherwise find a town name or a trench line name and enter it at the index to McMaster maps :https://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm.  You won't find every trench or town gives an answer but keep trying!

 

Taking page 255 of the diary which has Vermelles and  Essex Lane as an example.  Vermelles gives 36c NW3 and square G8, Essex Lane gives 36c NW3 and a number of squares (as a trench it went through a number of squares), 

 

From here there are a number of routes and people usually have a favourite way of getting to the answer.

 

The splendid resource http://www.tmapper.com/  will take your map sheet, 36c and square details and convert them into a location which you can look at on a number of different resources.  The Vermelles reference is only a square so enter G 24 a 00 00.  For Essex Lane enter G24 b 10 95.  The resources are at the bottom.

 

Another way is to go to the equally splendid National Library of Scotland trench maps collection https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/index.html or to the McMaster maps collection and look for the specific map and find the reference.  The NLS maps have the facility to look side by side at a trench map and a present day image.

 

I am conscious that the above is a pretty thin intro to  the process, look at the sites I have cited and you'll soon find your way around them, they each have a variety of capabilities that are worth investigating.

 

Good luck.

 

Max

 

 

 

 

[Von]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

Regarding the map references.  Both this https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/how-to-read-a-british-trench-map/ and this  http://www.greatwar.co.uk/research/maps/british-army-ww1-trench-maps.htm cover the subject in detail (the former is perhaps more readable).

 

Key is knowing which map sheet the reference is on.  Sometimes it may be in the diary as "Sheet 57B NW" or similar.  Otherwise find a town name or a trench line name and enter it at the index to McMaster maps :https://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm.  You won't find every trench or town gives an answer but keep trying!

 

Taking page 255 of the diary which has Vermelles and  Essex Lane as an example.  Vermelles gives 36c NW3 and square G8, Essex Lane gives 36c NW3 and a number of squares (as a trench it went through a number of squares), 

 

From here there are a number of routes and people usually have a favourite way of getting to the answer.

 

The splendid resource http://www.tmapper.com/  will take your map sheet, 36c and square details and convert them into a location which you can look at on a number of different resources.  The Vermelles reference is only a square so enter G 24 a 00 00.  For Essex Lane enter G24 b 10 95.  The resources are at the bottom.

 

Another way is to go to the equally splendid National Library of Scotland trench maps collection https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/index.html or to the McMaster maps collection and look for the specific map and find the reference.  The NLS maps have the facility to look side by side at a trench map and a present day image.

 

I am conscious that the above is a pretty thin intro to  the process, look at the sites I have cited and you'll soon find your way around them, they each have a variety of capabilities that are worth investigating.

 

Good luck.

 

Max

 

 

 

 

Fantastic Max - this appears to be my next project to see if I can work out where my grandfather actually served - I know he was in E company between entering the 9th Gordons and going into hospital -so I should be able to work out pretty much exactly where he was for about 6 months of the war. This is way more than I ever imagined I would ever discover about him. Not so long ago he was just a name, a service number and a few family rumours,  even to my Dad. 

 

I can't thank you all enough - I will hopefully in future be able to contribute to the group - I may be a 9th Gordons expert by the end of this :-0

 

BW

Von

[MaxD]

As Russ observed earlier,  you are very lucky in that the 9 Gordons diary has their battalion orders as well, the vast majority of diaries don't have these.  The usual phrase employed when someone asks about war diaries is "names of individual soldiers are seldom given".

 

The diary for August 1917 when he joined will give a good introduction to the process.  Do shout if you have a problem.

 

Today's tip - cross check, the same names often come up in a number of places, for example there are two Bois de Reveillon  (post 17) in France  but only one of them is in the operational area.

 

Good luck again

 

Max

[Von]

I know - I feel very lucky - this is almost better than a service record.

 

I think I have just managed to track one of the 9th Gordons changes of Camp, where they started, which roads they took and where they ended up. This will likely be the place where William joined them.

 

:-) 

 

Von

[MaxD]

Next level takes the trench map and compares it with today's aerial images. t mapper or NLS maps side by side (my favourite).  then Google maps or similar and mark up the positions on todays map (but you are probably there already!).

 

Max