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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

German Pre- war side arm's. UNIT MARKED


Steve1871

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I never read if German States marking weapons, Rifles or Bayonet's. So I am thinking these regimental marking's are Great War period. Part out of tradition and necessity , for lack of wespon's, 

 

I am not sure of model number's for these, the pair, was told wrre M50/65/71 but am not sure. Of the pair, one has arching unit scabbard.

H.T.L.2.35

for me, "l" is Landstrum ,"T" is Telegraph and "H", maybe Hussar?

together, they make no sense to me.alsoosding the throat piece from chape....... The other , non match but also has original frog

unit  P. And script "R" or "B" and 6.58.  So may be 6th Reserve Pioneer Regiment waffe 58?

 

I have a slimmer type side are, no idea what model, but nice deep unit marked with scabbard

B.8.R.6.94

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I have seen several of the larger ones posted on GWF before, several, better than mine😢 If you have one of these, or other types of early side arms, unit marked  you are very welcome to add your's to share your's, type, marking's. Thank you, Steve

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Sorry, that S98 pic was accident, no belong on post

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Hey D'. What would the unit's be?

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I will let you know as soon as I get back home, I am now traveling in France for new bayonets

Regards

D. 

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And the Cheese and Wine there D'! Have Fun👍

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Nice looking specimens! I'll hold on unit ID's for D to get back.

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STEVE,

HERE IS THE MEANING OF UNIT MARKINGS

P.B.6.54 = 6TH PIONIER BELAGERUNGSTRAIN, NUMBER OF WEAPON 54

H.T.L.2.35 = 2ND HESSISCHEN - TRAIN -  BATAILON - FELDLAZARETT, NUMBER OF WEAPON 35

VERY VERY RARE UNIT MARKING

B.8.R.= 8 KGL. BAYER. REGIMENT

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Would the "T" be train or telegraph/ (phone line)

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Steve

There was never a telegraph feldlazaret (hospital) as a unit during ww1 or prior of Ww1. 

Only train hospital exists. 

Regards

D. 

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Not trying to argue, but H.T.L.

I thought an "L" was for Landstrum, where and whT is  Feldlazarett mean? Just confused here

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I just paid off me second. 98/02, no can find photo's right now, but the unit marking is F.T.A. Followed by numbers, company and Waffen  number, seller kept saying telegraph unit, so he was wrong,and it has to be a train unit?

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On 23/08/2019 at 19:51, Steve1871 said:

Not trying to argue, but H.T.L.

I thought an "L" was for Landstrum, where and whT is  Feldlazarett mean? Just confused here

 

Feldlazarett - field hospital

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On 23/08/2019 at 20:02, Steve1871 said:

I just paid off me second. 98/02, no can find photo's right now, but the unit marking is F.T.A. Followed by numbers, company and Waffen  number, seller kept saying telegraph unit, so he was wrong,and it has to be a train unit?

 

Quick reply - possibly Feld Telegraph-Abteilung  by the pre-1909 unit marking systems? Telegraph units were issued with these bayonets.

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Most people over use the word RARE, but I think both Train units and Telegraph units for Regimental marking's MAY be considered rare, with my "F.T.A. " marked bayonet, am proud either way to have it 

 

currently on a 3 day 3000Km run that takes me home, will see what's in the mail?!?

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Certainly not very common mate! Good luck on the drive.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Steve,

 

You've some nice sidearms here.  

 

For your interest, I've attached some photos of my very relic example, which was found near Festubert and is likely to date from the 1915 fighting there.  It's an interesting piece for me as my great grandfather was fighting there in 1915.  I'm not entirely sure what the markings are but I think they relate to a Foot Artillery unit.  

 

Best,

 

Simon   

 

 

M1864 Sidearm - Festubert 8.JPG

M1864 Sidearm - Festubert 12.JPG

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Thank's for your post Simon!

Your piece . 2.A.F 12.207 I believe is the second Foot Artillerie, regiment,twelfth company, 207th weapon. 

 

Although issued to rear units, it is considered for Artillerie units, most I have seen were Sryillerie

 

My two I simply bought, just know the unit's where your's has more history, Knowing the area where tour's was recovered from a battlefield , Festubert, and your Grandfather fought it that area makes a great piece to talk about.

 

If you have kid's or are an Uncle, 

Telling of your Grandfather and the war is one thing, but showing this to them, letting them hold it may give them more interest and respect to a man and a war they never knew/ lived

Thank's again Simon

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P.B.6.54 = 6TH PIONIER BELAGERUNGSTRAIN, NUMBER OF WEAPON 54

H.T.L.2.35 = 2ND HESSISCHEN - TRAIN -  BATAILON - FELDLAZARETT, NUMBER OF WEAPON 35

 nearly perfect designation of units, mostly Pionier Belagerungs train, 6. company waffe nr.54 as there was the nr in front removed

- Grossherzog Hessische Train Battalion , Feld Lazaret nr.2 , waffe nr.35

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  • 3 weeks later...

I just found this thread and thought I might as well add my three examples of "faschinenmesser". From top to bottom, Prussia, Saxony, Wurttemberg (all steel model which I believe to be scarce). Sadly none have scabbards but all are unit marked.

 

 

Prussian Faschinenmesser 2.jpg

Prussian Faschinenmesser 4.jpg

Saxon Faschinenmesser 1.jpg

Saxon Faschinenmesser 3.jpg

Wurtemberg Faschinenmesser 1.jpg

Wurtemberg Faschinenmesser 3.jpg

Wurtemberg Faschinenmesser 5.jpg

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the units are:

 

4th (3rd East Prussian) Grenadiers "King Frederick the Great"

101st (2nd Royal Saxon) Grenadiers "Emperor William, King of Prussia"

123rd (5th Wurttemberg) Grenadiers "King Charles"

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Thank’s NorthStaffsPOW

great pic’s and Sidearm’s, Fascheninmessers. From what I know, remember, different German states would adopt the same side arm, sometimes alter  slightly to make them “ their” model , on your first two,the pommel/ handle was very popular from late 1830’s through 1860’s with different finals on rear as well as cross guard and at least 3 different types of blades your “ machete “ style blade being popular in the 1840’s.

right now, there is one for sale with same pommel, strait brass guard and the blade is saw backed, Said to be Prussian M1845 model, there is a British site which has a lot of these side arms from many countries.

 

The German army , as we all know, was un-prepared like all the countries at beginning , 1914/15 , Germany had a massive push to produce bayonets, setting up more companies and tooling up, The ERSATZ bayonet’s were pushed to fill the gap, rushes to the front.

 

The Side arms, Fascheninmesser’s were mostly Artillery model side arms, It seem’s that the German military simply ordered the UNIT TYPES that were considered rear  Unit’s, not expected to see front line combat to be re- issued these obsolete side arms, as well as obsolete M71 Mauser and it’s bayonets 

 

What I have seen, in person and on line, the most common unit’s we’re ARTILLERY, followed by Train, then other units such as Telegraph ,Hospital Train,supply Column, and others

 

Germany was the main country to use unit/ Regimental markings but others did too. Unit markings bring the items to “ LIFE” so to speak, Rifle, Bayonet, uniform’s and other .You can trace where that piece of history went. The Forum based out of the U.K., has a high percent of members from there , And I would guess at least a hand full have a rifle, bayonet or shirt/ jacket passed down from father or grandfather from the Great War proudly displaying those Regimental Markings. I actually have an S98 bayonet with the same Regiment of a Forum member in Germany’s Grandfather! 
Member Simon127 posted a couple of pic’s on this thread where he researched and found his side arm was in battles with artillery unit in same place where his grand father once fought.

Collecting is like a treasure hunt, never know what you might find. These “Side Arms” were used in the war, and yes, in battle, Artillery battles between both sides, The love of Regimental markings is a challenge, on the German side , a lot of collectors look for M.G.  Machine gun units, but the RARER the BETTER for collectors, these Side arms have some if the rarer units that collectors could hope to collect

Hope I did not drone on too long Gent’s, my observations, limited study and my humble thoughts, Thank you

 

Any other members have these early side arms, please feel free to share here or make your own thread 

Steve

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Some interesting observations there Steve. I don't know if you have seen this photo? Apparently taken on the Champagne front. Two faschinenmessers in evidence and an ersatz bayonet being worn by the man at the guns trail.

 

 

artillery.jpg

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nice picture it should be mentioned the period is mostly 1916 or later, the handguards are messing probably.

The last one pictured Faschinenmesser of Wuerttemberg in thread 21, was probably equiped with steel handle in very late period, there is many similar pieces reported from WW1 and Wurttemberg units.Faschinenmesser with sawback and heavy blade were used primary as tool for arranging the area and coverage of artillery arms and by Pioneers.

 

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