Steve1871 Posted 16 August , 2019 Share Posted 16 August , 2019 To start , Every collector, regardless of what He/She collect's, want's and hope's their stuff is rare, including myself . I only have 3 98/05, two are overstamped This piece I keep studying and to me, I see more than one overstamp In my view, I see 1. A faint name in a arch, half worn off, Thin block letter's, the Word Berlin on bottom also has thin block letter's, so those two could be together- the original 2. Act. Co is overstamped over the faint name, Deeply stamped, broad type face 3. The " Dancing Men" are deep struck. But look closely , they are off set from the "Act. Co" and the left man over strikes the "Co" 4. The FRISTER & ROSSMAN is deeply stamped 5. FRISTER & Rossman were in Berlin, but an older, thinner Berlin stamp does not seem to go with the broader, deeper stamp Am I reading too much into this, or is this at least a double Overstamping?All comments good/bad welcomed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 16 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 August , 2019 Few more pic's , did not have time to clean it, should look better, hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 16 August , 2019 Share Posted 16 August , 2019 (edited) Steve, The “dancing twins” stamp is associated with the J.A. Henckels company, of Solingen Germany. Frister & Rossmann was founded in Berlin in 1864. I seem to recall that the German bayonet industry had a scheme where one or more makers would produce parts, which were then shipped to an assembler ; this would explain at least two of the markings. I cannot help with the third “Act...” This right up Trajan’s alley, so he will probably be along. Regards, JMB Edited 17 August , 2019 by JMB1943 Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 17 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2019 Thank's JMB Do you think my view is correct? There is at least 2 overstamp'a as I laid out ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 17 August , 2019 Share Posted 17 August , 2019 Steve, I have looked at the ‘Act’ area under a glass and I think that the stamp is, Act. Ges. followed by too faint to read; this is Actiengesellschaft = corporation (have seen this on 1921 documents), more usually spelled as Akt... Difficult to say whether one overstamp or two. I would not be surprised either way. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 17 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 17 August , 2019 Thank's again, I never heard of that. Hopefully TRAJAN might get worked up on this as a challenge. Somehow, I never noticed before . Had this bayonet a long time . Strange to me. You are a big help there JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 August , 2019 Share Posted 19 August , 2019 Slowly but surely I catch up with things! A week's family break at ma-in-law's new place in Istanbul with no internet connection as yet! OK, yes, overstruck ones not that common, but two only stamps here. The Henckels twins, as JMB said, while the earlier curved stamp and the horizontal lines below are all one stamp for "ACT.GES.VORM. / FRISTER & ROSSMAN /BERLIN", who did produce bayonet blanks for Henckels. As JMB noted also, the the "ACT" etc. part is for Aktiengesellshaft. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 19 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2019 Julian, your are the expert on these things, The Henckel twins over stamp we both agree with... You say the arch type is Abbreviated as Act.Ges.Vorm. To take actiengesellschaft and break it down in 3 part's make no sense . The Biggest argument is this...... The Type set, the size and broad "Type" on the Steel Punch/ striker is not only deeper, but the "ACT.CO are broader, the letter's on the right...the letters themselves are smaller. And thinner typeset, as well as a lot lighter strike. Even if for some strange reason, the punch, strike was off set, striking mostly one side. ( not likely) but the whole word of type set of every letter would be same type I clearly see Act.Co as Deep and WIDE type letter's while the letters on right are THIN type and shallow That would not be a single steel "Punch" stamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 19 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 19 August , 2019 If you were to put your GWF ne on a steel punch, you would not have as. TRAjan,. All letter's would be same, TRAJAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 August , 2019 Share Posted 20 August , 2019 (edited) You 'doubting Thomas', you! But I do see what you mean. BUT, here are some examples from the web shown for reference... Stamps are often unevenly impressed owing in part to the shape of the blade cross-section. These ones are not especially common and all seem to be made in 1917. Note also how in some cases, the Henckels mark coms before the Frister & Rossman one... Julian Edited 20 August , 2019 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 20 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 20 August , 2019 I shall bow to the Master now! You win . But I still do not understand how the same stamp, even an uneven punch/ pressing can be wide typeset ( broad/ thicker letters) and thin on other side???? would think if punch was harder on one side, the other side would be a lighter strike, BUT same broad letters, just shallow Guess this will be solved ( by TRAJAN ) but still a mystery thanks for those photo's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 August , 2019 Share Posted 22 August , 2019 Carter vol 1 says quite a bit on this over stamping - not that rare among those particular bayonets. Let me look through what he says when I get a chance. He was clearly puzzled by what he had seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 22 August , 2019 Share Posted 22 August , 2019 Trajan, What is the full German word that is abbreviated to ‘vorm.’ and the meaning? First time that I have seen a Frister & Rossmann bayonet. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 August , 2019 Share Posted 22 August , 2019 For you JMB, and others, it is in full Actiengesellschaft vormals Frister und Rossman - Holding Company, previously Frister und Rossman. Sounds like Frister und Rossman went bankrupt? They were a pre-1914 sewing machine company but I think still around today? Will come back on RAF bayonets and other news tomorrow / Saturday Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 5 November , 2019 Share Posted 5 November , 2019 Unfortunally no visible proofs on blade and pommel, there should be visible were it was proofed, as Solingen proofs are typical for this year, i assume Henckels was blade supllier and Frister Rossman mounted the piece together, even on some blades looks like the twins is over the other stamp. The twins were deeply stamped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 November , 2019 Share Posted 6 November , 2019 On 22/08/2019 at 19:58, trajan said: Will come back on RAF bayonets and other news tomorrow / Saturday Well, sometime in the next few days during mid-term exam week! 22 hours ago, AndyBsk said: Unfortunally no visible proofs on blade and pommel, there should be visible were it was proofed, as Solingen proofs are typical for this year, i assume Henckels was blade supllier and Frister Rossman mounted the piece together, even on some blades looks like the twins is over the other stamp. The twins were deeply stamped. THere was certainly a lot of going back and forth with these bayonets in the final production stages during the bayonet crisis of 1915-1917 before the Waffenfabrik production really got going. Sometimes the company that made the blades send them to others for finishing who in return sometimes send back blades to them for finishing! Odd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 6 November , 2019 Share Posted 6 November , 2019 (edited) The bayonet crisis was in late 1914 and early 1915,i dont believe that it was depend on other production stages as Waffenfabrik mentioned, as many production areas were used, and for short time were produced Aushilfe SG in great ammount, prior to large production of well accepted modells in well known Solingen and other areas were increased for army needs. here the marking of both areas pommel and blade spine would be good to see? Personally i believe the blades were proofed prior to delivery to mount firma. So mostly there was no way back to blade maker probably. more real is the RC stamp real. Edited 6 November , 2019 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 November , 2019 Share Posted 7 November , 2019 16 hours ago, AndyBsk said: The bayonet crisis was in late 1914 and early 1915,i dont believe that it was depend on other production stages as Waffenfabrik mentioned, as many production areas were used, and for short time were produced Aushilfe SG in great ammount True, but the German production plan issued April 1915 planned for the manufacture of the ersatz ending in September 1915, by when the various 98/05 producers should have been supplying 100,000+ 98/05 each month as from that July. I don't have the Waffenfabrik production rates avaialable right now but the existence of a transitional 98/05 shows they began producing their 1,000,000 contracted examples in the summer of 1915. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Scheuchzer Posted 13 March , 2021 Share Posted 13 March , 2021 my opinion is that the company J.A. Henckels produced a blade for deliveries to the company Frister und Rossmann and already marked the blade with the FR brand in its production and subsequently marked this product with its own brand (Zwillings). This happened directly at the Zwillingswerk factory. The blades were already leaving for the FR marked with their logo. It is similar at Fichtel und Sachs, but the logo was created there together. Sorry, I'm using google translator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 13 March , 2021 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2021 Thanks Andreas The more information we share, the better off we are in collecting.I am always grateful to learn something new in collecting. Best when it is from my humble collection😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Scheuchzer Posted 13 March , 2021 Share Posted 13 March , 2021 I have been collecting bayonets for about 17 years, I only specialize in 98/05. I have never been an active member of any forum. Today I read a lot of interesting things here. Preview the collection for example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 13 March , 2021 Share Posted 13 March , 2021 Amazing collection, welcome to the Forum. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 14 March , 2021 Share Posted 14 March , 2021 Certainly nice collection, with the stamps already made by blade forging supplier as Henckels is this a real, even the majority of the here pictured pieces have a twins stamp under the Frist.Rossmann markings the first one is in turned on position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 March , 2021 Share Posted 14 March , 2021 11 hours ago, Andreas Scheuchzer said: I have been collecting bayonets for about 17 years, I only specialize in 98/05. I have never been an active member of any forum. Today I read a lot of interesting things here. Preview the collection for example Indeed, welcome to the GWF! Do you have a specific focus, for example all makers? Or all years for all makers? I have something approaching the number you have here of Waffenfabrik Mauser bayonets which I collected for an article I was writing, but not so manty of the other makers. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Scheuchzer Posted 14 March , 2021 Share Posted 14 March , 2021 2 hours ago, trajan said: Vítej na GWF! Máte konkrétní zaměření, například všechny výrobce? Nebo všechny roky pro všechny tvůrce? Mám něco, co se blíží číslu, které zde máte, bajonetů Waffenfabrik Mauser, které jsem shromáždil pro článek, který jsem psal, ale ne tak mužný od ostatních tvůrců. Juliane Hello Juliane. From the beginning I wanted all the manufacturers. Now that I have them, I wanted all the variants of bayonets in which two manufacturers participated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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