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Remembered Today:

The French Army Thread


Tomb1302

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@battle of loos

Bonsoir Michel, Any clues on uniform in my post 220 above, please ?

 

 

How can you be so sure that those plain buttons in your post 225 are Spahis ?

 

thanks

Charlie

 

 

Edited by charlie962
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18 hours ago, charlie962 said:

@battle of loos

Bonsoir Michel, Any clues on uniform in my post 220 above, please ?

 

 

How can you be so sure that those plain buttons in your post 225 are Spahis ?

 

thanks

Charlie

 

 

 

good morning,

 

here's my source

 

Le Bouton uniforme français

 

image.png.3e833bd32c053ba6e671b01c2018447e.pngimage.png.7210f20056eb951e44b729b4623ce868.pngimage.png.3e833bd32c053ba6e671b01c2018447e.png

 

regards

 

michel

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

 

On the way back from the Meuse yesterday I stopped at Sainte-Menehould French cemetery to pay my respect to three of the Ruellan brothers: Julius, Henri and André. They are buried side by side.

In the town a street is named after them, "rue des six frères" (the "six brothers street"). 

 

IMG_5711.JPG.c9d191a2650bb1fd478da2b03553072b.JPG

Sly

 

 

Edited by Sly
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A fine photograph and a nice gesture Sly. Merci beaucoup. I must have been close to the cemetery on one of my trips to the Meuse; if I am near in the future I will try to visit. 

 

Pete.

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  • 5 months later...
  • 3 months later...
  • 2 months later...
On 10/11/2019 at 20:08, Michael Haselgrove said:

I have enjoyed this thread and, to bring it back, I have posted the photo below from my collection. 

In the meantime, in case it helps, in my opinion, the helmet at #195 has the badge of the medical service?

Regards,

Michael.

 

DSC04720.JPG

 

It really is an excellent photograph (one of a series of official photographs taken in June-July 1916) ... depicting a Forward Observation Officer of the artillery (being 'photo-bombed' by an infantryman!) invariably catalogued as directing fire in the vicinity of Estrées (Estrées-Deniécourt) on the Somme, circa 3/4 July 1916.

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On 18/08/2019 at 16:00, phil andrade said:

.,,But what are Aspirants and Adjutants ?  Are they fully fledged officers, or what we British call NCOs ? ...

 

Further to previous answers, in the French Army of 1914-18 - and differing to the British Army - an NCO ranked above corporal (caporal). An adjudant was basically the equivalent of a British Warrant Officer. In 1913, a further adjudant grade was created, that of adjudant-chef.  From then on you could roughly say that the Brit Army inf equivalents would be adjudant =Company Sergeant Major (CSM), and adjudant-chef = Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM). 

 

In time of war both of these ranks often assumed the same role as that of a sous-lieutenant within a battalion and, with them wearing officer quality uniforms, can often be indistinguishable in photos without closely looking (for example, in the below image of a group of NCOs of the 63e régiment d'infanterie, the 'officer-looking' soldier is actually an adjudant ... I also include an image of a mle.1893 vareuse and képi polo of an adjudant of the same regiment to add colour!)...

63e regiment d'inganterie (2).jpg

Img_8974.jpg

Img_8986.jpg

63 ri kepi.jpg

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55 minutes ago, OM4619 said:

... with them wearing officer quality uniforms, can often be indistinguishable in photos without closely looking ...

... and you really do have to look closely to tell the difference between the tunic of an adjudant and that of  a sous-lieutenant on a period image! :)

1.JPG

2.JPG

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On 16/11/2019 at 20:30, Keith_history_buff said:

... you can usually see the anchor on the plate of their Adrian helmet...
 

Indeed ... Also on the buttons of a régiment d'artillerie colonial ...

1.JPG

 

Adrian - Inf Colonial.jpg

EImtSJWWwAErIGX.jpg

Edited by OM4619
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Dear - Apologies if you have seen these before but there is a gentleman,  Stuart Humphryes who posts online as Babelcolour. He has been digitally restoring autochromes, a colour photo system developed in France by the Lumiere brothers and available by 1908.  The system was used by a number of French photographers to take photographs during WW1 and Mr Humphryes has restored these and posted them.  You can see them here:

 

http://babelcolour.com/ww1/

 

These are not colourised, they were orginally taken in colour

 

couple of good examples:

image.png.5dedbb9473546aec2b2ae0b2f331082d.png

image.png.54a76ccd0f82490dbae46013c080e26e.png

 

Hope you enjoy them

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They are pretty amazing (then again, so are the original, unrestored photos!). The ECPAD archives at Ivry-sur-Seine have thousands of these (unrestored) images, hundreds of which have been posted online (both on their own website and in other various locations). 

 

The restorations are absolutely superb but, similar to a feeling I get when viewing the results of the colourisation of B&W images, I feel that the restored images lose a bit of 'something' during the process and, personally, think that I prefer the originals. ... That's just me being me though! :thumbsup:

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  • 2 months later...
  • Admin

@Gabelou, you have sent four reports about this thread in the last few minutes. Are you reporting  the posts rather than replying to them? 

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Sorry I make a mistake. My intention was to reply to some request of identification,  not to report.

I am aware of the fact that I am more from Gutenberg  than from Marconi generation.

I appologyze for the disturbance.

In fact, I probably miss a steep. Could you tell me how to react to a specific post in a long serie of 50? 

Many thanks in advance.

Yours sincerely 

Gabelou

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  • Admin

To reply to a specific older post you can quote  that post. 
Michelle 

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  • 4 months later...

The following relates to service in the Metropolitan Army and the Colonial units, where an individual were to voluntarily engage for a period of 3, 4 or 5 years.

My thanks to Laurence/loloastre of forum pages14-18, for pointing me in the direction of the law of 7 août 1913 relative to the composition of cadres and the staffing of combat units by soldiers on active service, superseding the previously extant law of 21 mars 1905.
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24.JPG.96b3be4c9ed325891df1b42f26da6989.JPG

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Greeting all.  I found this thread randomly, read the whole thing and was inspired to create an account on this site I enjoyed it so much!  Particularly the "button guy."  What an incredible and creative way to date photos!

 

I have a trove of items and documents from my Great Uncle who was a Sergeant in the 103rd Infantry, 26th "Yankee" Division that I'll have to share in case folks find them interesting.

 

In the meantime though in addition to thanking you for this informative thread I have a couple of questions.

 

The first relates to the structure of the French Army.  As I understand it there was the Armee Metropolitan composed mostly of conscripts and was only deployed in Europe and La Coloniale, which was composed of professional solders who were volunteers and could be deployed anywhere. However I have also read that the Colonial Army was further divided between European troops, "Infanterie Colonial, Legion, " for example from France and "Native" soldiers, for instance Tirailleurs Sénégalais from Western Africa.  So I guess here are my questions:

 

Were the Colonial Army soldiers all volunteers? Including the native units?

Were Zouave units conscripts or volunteers? 

Was there a subdivision of the Colonial Army just for North Africa?

Were Chasseur au Pied and Chasseur d'Alpine units volunteer or conscripts? Were they available for deployment outside Europe?

What was the relationship between the Officer Corps of the Metropolitan Army vs the Colonial Army?  Did officers move back and forth?  Were Metropolitan officers encouraged or required to do a tour of duty with the Colonial Army during their career?  

 

Any answers or sources I can find answers to the questions are welcome!

 

Last question:

Does anyone know of a good source that shows the relative lengths of the Western Front held by the respective Entente armies over time?  For example how many kilometers of the front were held by the French, Belgians and BEF in say Jan 1915 vs Jan 1916 vs Jan 1917 etc?   I'm posting this in the French thread because that's where my interest is focused and I'm also certain that they held the largest proportion of the Front for the the whole war but if there is another place I should ask the question I'm all ears.

 

Thanks again!

-JH

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1 hour ago, JHillier said:

Greeting all.  I found this thread randomly, read the whole thing and was inspired to create an account on this site I enjoyed it so much!  Particularly the "button guy."  What an incredible and creative way to date photos!

 

I have a trove of items and documents from my Great Uncle who was a Sergeant in the 103rd Infantry, 26th "Yankee" Division that I'll have to share in case folks find them interesting.

 

In the meantime though in addition to thanking you for this informative thread I have a couple of questions.

 

The first relates to the structure of the French Army.  As I understand it there was the Armee Metropolitan composed mostly of conscripts and was only deployed in Europe and La Coloniale, which was composed of professional solders who were volunteers and could be deployed anywhere. However I have also read that the Colonial Army was further divided between European troops, "Infanterie Colonial, Legion, " for example from France and "Native" soldiers, for instance Tirailleurs Sénégalais from Western Africa.  So I guess here are my questions:

 

Were the Colonial Army soldiers all volunteers? Including the native units?

Were Zouave units conscripts or volunteers? 

Was there a subdivision of the Colonial Army just for North Africa?

Were Chasseur au Pied and Chasseur d'Alpine units volunteer or conscripts? Were they available for deployment outside Europe?

What was the relationship between the Officer Corps of the Metropolitan Army vs the Colonial Army?  Did officers move back and forth?  Were Metropolitan officers encouraged or required to do a tour of duty with the Colonial Army during their career?  

 

Any answers or sources I can find answers to the questions are welcome!

 

Last question:

Does anyone know of a good source that shows the relative lengths of the Western Front held by the respective Entente armies over time?  For example how many kilometers of the front were held by the French, Belgians and BEF in say Jan 1915 vs Jan 1916 vs Jan 1917 etc?   I'm posting this in the French thread because that's where my interest is focused and I'm also certain that they held the largest proportion of the Front for the the whole war but if there is another place I should ask the question I'm all ears.

 

Thanks again!

-JH

Hi

 

For details of the French Army then the book 'The French Army and the First World War' by Elizabeth Greenhalgh, CUP, 2014, would probably be the best place to start.  Another general book 'Paths of Glory, The French Army 1914-18' by Anthony Clayton, Cassell, 2003,is slightly less detailed but still useful.

'Flesh and Steel, During the Great War - The Transformation of the French Army and the Invention of Modern Warfare' by Michel Goya, translated by Andrew Uffindell, Pen & Sword, 2018, is very interesting and detailed but probably not best for your questions.  There are quite a lot of books relating to the French Army during WW1 in English these days.

As for holding lengths of line, one would hope that France played a very large part in that, after all it was in France and the other major allies were helping them.  Of course elements of the French Army were in Belgium as well.  Lengths of line held by individual national contingents varied throughout the war.

 

Mike

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3 hours ago, JHillier said:

The first relates to the structure of the French Army.  As I understand it there was the Armee Metropolitan composed mostly of conscripts and was only deployed in Europe and La Coloniale, which was composed of professional solders who were volunteers and could be deployed anywhere. However I have also read that the Colonial Army was further divided between European troops, "Infanterie Colonial, Legion, " for example from France and "Native" soldiers, for instance Tirailleurs Sénégalais from Western Africa.  So I guess here are my questions:

 

Were the Colonial Army soldiers all volunteers? Including the native units?

Were Zouave units conscripts or volunteers? 

Was there a subdivision of the Colonial Army just for North Africa?

Were Chasseur au Pied and Chasseur d'Alpine units volunteer or conscripts? Were they available for deployment outside Europe?

What was the relationship between the Officer Corps of the Metropolitan Army vs the Colonial Army?  Did officers move back and forth?  Were Metropolitan officers encouraged or required to do a tour of duty with the Colonial Army during their career?  

 

Any answers or sources I can find answers to the questions are welcome!


Mike has given a good reading list, which should address some of your questions, which a simple forum post cannot do. The best literature will be some older books in the French language, as you might imagine.

It is easy to get confused with the Armée D'Afrique which is North Africa, yet still considered part of the Metropolitan Army. North Africa was the 19th military region and its troops formed the 19th Army Corps of the Metropolitan Army, unofficially known as the Armée D'Afrique. There were Tirailleur units staffed by Arabs, which were volunteers. The Zouaves are part of the Armée D'Afrique. The idea was that pieds-noirs who did their national service would be serving in the Zouaves. The Zouaves started WW1 wearing a darker blue uniform, with the Tirailleurs wearing a similar uniform in light blue. With the cavalry, Europeans tended to join the Chasseurs d'Afrique. In addition, the Foreign Legion was a part of the 19th Army Corps too. North Africa was considered to be an extension of Metropolitan France, merely separated by the Mediterranean, and was not considered a colony.

Extra Zouave battalions were permanently stationed in Paris and Lyon, and accepted conscripts locally. The idea was that in the event of German aggression, conscripts returning to the colours had a local depot at the two most strategic garrisons. The result would be that returning men would be formed into bataillons de marche. These are like Service Battalions of British county infantry regiments, raised for the duration of hostilities. I don't know enough about US forces to know if an equivalent has ever existed - casual battalions maybe?

Battalions within Zouave regiments, line infantry regiments, and chasseur à pied battalions of the Metropolitan Army would be staffed by conscripts in peacetime. In addition, there would be a framework of professional soldiers who were NCOs and lower ranking officers. The word in French for a framework is a <<cadre>>, which has been adopted in anglophone military vernacular too. The terms of enlistment from 1913 are further up this thread.

With regard to the Troupes Coloniale, they fit into two categories. Similar to the Foreign Legion, the Infanterie Coloniale ("marsouins") were volunteer soldiers who would see service in the colonies. As I understand it, they could serve as NCOs in the Tirailleurs Sénégalais too. There was a very small body of Artillerie Coloniale ("bigors") too. Entrants to the Tirailleurs Sénégalais were Africans from French colonies in sub-saharan Africa. I have understood them to have been volunteers, I do not know what coercive measures were done to get more African men to join during WW1. Similarly, there were the Tirailleurs Malgaches and the Tirailleurs Indochinois under the umbrella of the Troupes Coloniale.

Regarding:
>Were they available for deployment outside Europe?
I would respond with a rhetorical question: what would be the circumstances that would necessitate them being deployed outside of France?
One company of ski troops did get sent to fight the Bolsheviks in 1918, which is a minute quantity of men, but I would imagine that there would be a reluctance to deploy the Chasseurs Alpins away from France.
The 175th and 176th line infantry regiments were raised, and were deployed overseas, firstly on the Gallipoli peninsula and thereafter in Salonika. It could well be the case that Chasseurs à Pied were deployed to Salonika and to Italy in WW1. You would have to go away and research that.

You raise an interesting question about officers, and it is one that I cannot answer. You would need to look at a number of biographies of French officers. From what I have seen in one or two cases, service was not mutually exclusive in one or other branch. That said, I get the impression there is not such fluidity between the US Army and the US Marine Corps, notwithstanding a similar rank structure. You may want to get the question translated into French, and post it on the francophone equivalent to the GWF. Wherever that knowledge base sits, I do not think most of those experts would be particularly fluent in English.

Good luck with your ongoing research.
Keith

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This is extremely helpful!  Thank you for the detailed information regarding the Armée D'Afrique, I did not realize that it was technically a part of the Metropolitan Army, but it makes a lot of sense after you have described it.

 

And thank you @MikeMeech for the reading list, that is exactly what I was looking for.  I'm especially intrigued by the book you mentioned by Michel Goya, there seems to be a lack of translated French books on WW1 compared with the vast amount of English sources.  I will be sure to find a copy.

 

Thanks again for all your help and insights.  I'm looking forward to continuing to explore this forum.

 

-JH

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On 07/06/2021 at 12:59, JHillier said:

This is extremely helpful!  Thank you for the detailed information regarding the Armée D'Afrique, I did not realize that it was technically a part of the Metropolitan Army, but it makes a lot of sense after you have described it.

 

And thank you @MikeMeech for the reading list, that is exactly what I was looking for.  I'm especially intrigued by the book you mentioned by Michel Goya, there seems to be a lack of translated French books on WW1 compared with the vast amount of English sources.  I will be sure to find a copy.

 

Thanks again for all your help and insights.  I'm looking forward to continuing to explore this forum.

 

-JH

Hi

Depending on what specifics you are interested in, a couple of other relatively recent books are:

'Early Trench Tactics in the French Army, The Second Battle of Artois, May-June 1915' by Jonathan Krause, Routledge (PB), 2016.

'The French Army's Tank Force and Armoured Warfare in the Great War' by Tim Gale, Routledge (PB), 2016.

 

Mike

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'The French Army's Tank Force and Armored Warfare in the Great War' by Tim Gale, Routledge (PB), 2016.

 

This sounds fascinating!  I have often thought the French WWI tank arm gets short shrift considering the number of tanks deployed and the influence they had post war.  I will definitely have to track down a copy.

 

-JH

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  • 1 month later...

  

On 30/11/2019 at 20:33, emrezmen said:

I have a high quality photo of a French Zouave at Lemnos. Apparently he's wearing the classic Zouave uniform, red hat, red trousers and dark blue jacket.

Speaking of uniforms, I would like to ask a question. This is a photo (Source: Turkish General Staff Archives -ATASE-) of seven Allied POWs which I shared here before. The French soldier in front wearing a different dark tunic (dark blue) instead of famous horizon blue. He's wearing the horizon blue infantry kepi at the same time. What's his class do you think? To my knowledge, usually the gunners wore this type of uniform in French army. But the other two French soldiers behind apparently wearing the same dark tunic under their horizon blue coat. Was that dark tunic a standard uniform for infantry in French army?

10999534_1537122819882194_8911584874381854963_o.jpg.d4c4e500e306fb9215a26f7795711518.jpg

22.jpg.c963a280250c5e5d2b25dba62f247384.jpg

 

 

It is confirmed that the man is in the ranks, presumably a Soldat de 2e Classe. Since this question was asked, there has been a positive identification of 45 French soldiers who were taken prisoner by the Turkish Army, out of 6,902 men missing in action.

We get the answer that the garment is a <<paletot>> and was specific to the Troupes Coloniales. The Troupes Coloniales would have an equivalent in the english-speaking world, albeit in a different time period, of the soldiers of the Honourable East India Company.

Edit: I neglected to add that primary sources show that there were only infantry from La Coloniale who were present in the order of battle at Gallipoli. The positively identified French Army POWs are infantrymen and four sappers. I was reminded that the soldiers manning the field artillery were from the Metropolitan Army.

Link to the answer on a different thread
 








 

Edited by Keith_history_buff
Added in blue font a paragraph I neglected to add, in my haste to post before going grocery shopping.
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 Demobilisation of conscripts. 

On 20/07/2021 at 19:01, Keith_history_buff said:

When looking at soldiers in the British Army, quite often these men are being demobilised in the first quarter of 1919, so it is interesting that he is transferred in September 1919 to be demobilised. I've not looked at demobilisation dates for poilus - my interrogation of the records have been in relation to their whereabouts during the conflict itself -so do not know if this was a late demobilisation or not.

 

Quote

Demobilisation of the [French] army began rapidly.
The call-up classes of 1889-91 were released in December [1918],
1892-96 in January 1919,
1897-1901 in February,
1902-5 in March,
1906-9 in April,
1910-14 in August,
1915 in September,
1916-17 in November,
1918 in June 1920,
and 1919 in March 1921
Certain special cases were advanced or retarded according to circumstances.


Source:
p 222 Clayton
Paths of Glory, The French Army 1914-18 
Chapter 11: Aftermath

As to when these men were mobilised, each classe for the years 1914 through to 1919 was mobilised in advance. The classe of 1916 was mobilised in April 1915, I have been told.
 

Quote

The class of 1918 was called up in July 1917 to help meet the shortfalls, and formations were restructured to yield men.


Source:
p 155 Clayton
Chapter 7. 1917: Breakdown and Recovery
Paths of Glory, The French Army 1914-18


Whilst there is some good material in Clayton's book, my paperback copy does not have inline citations, to indicate the primary sources consulted.

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