Ayrshire Regiment?

[Liz Passe]

Can someone please help to identify the regiment of these soldiers. I am almost certain the photograph was taken in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire.My grandfather is in the photo and I am certain he did not serve overseas. There is a wide age range of men in the photo and i am wondering if these would be Territorials who continued in training during the War?

The photographs and names of the men are reproduced by permission of East Ayrshire Council/East Ayrshire Leisure as our family gave them the photograph a number of years ago.

[FROGSMILE]

The vast majority of both, men and officers are wearing the General Service/List cap badge.  A number of small organisations wore this badge, but it was also worn for a time by the Labour Corps and I suspect that might be what’s seen here.  The Labour Corps took older men and men of low medical grading, including many ex-wounded no longer fit for front line service as the war went on. Even these men were sub divided between those fit for overseas deployment and those fit for home only.  Home only men did a range of administrative jobs across the National infrastructure in support of the war effort.  As the men were technically soldiers and serving under the articles of war (i.e. military law) they could not withdraw labour (strike) and so could be used reliably for vital tasks, sometimes making use of skills gained in their civilian occupation.  The badge was also worn for a very short time by the Volunteer Training Corps (VTC), who were a type of Home Guard.

There is a single officer wearing regimental insignia whose parent unit is the Royal Scots Fusiliers (RSF). He wears the distinctive glengarry cap with diced (chequered) band.  The RSF were the County Regiment of Ayrshire, Dumfriesshire, Kirkcudbrightshire, Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire and Wigtownshire in South-West Scotland.  See enclosed images for officers badge and a close up view of uniform.

Edited 15 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 The RSF were the County Regiment of Ayrshire, Dumfriesshire, Kirkcudbrightshire, Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire and Wigtownshire in South-West Scotland.  See enclosed images for officers badge and a close up view of uniform.

 

 

 

 

 

I think that Ayrshire and Wigtownshire were, but the others were King's Own Scottish Borderers territory, surely?

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

I think that Ayrshire and Wigtownshire were, but the others were King's Own Scottish Borderers territory, surely?

 

I think there was some overlap Steven, but it also relates to the allocation by Childers.  IIRC there was later some cross posting/exchanging of the erstwhile VBs.

Edited 15 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

I was checking the locations of territorial units and they certainly align with my suggestion. 

[Rob B]

1 hour ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

I think that Ayrshire and Wigtownshire were, but the others were King's Own Scottish Borderers territory, surely?

Wash your mouth out Broomers. The Royal Scots Fusiliers were a good solid Ayrshire Regiment with its Depot at Churchill Barracks in Ayr.

[Liz Passe]

Thank you so much for your replies. I really wonder if this was the Volunteer Training Corps as I never heard it referred to that my grandfather was in the army. He was the owner of an ironmonger's shop and would have been in his late 30s at the start of the war.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Liz Passe said:

Thank you so much for your replies. I really wonder if this was the Volunteer Training Corps as I never heard it referred to that my grandfather was in the army. He was the owner of an ironmonger's shop and would have been in his late 30s at the start of the war.

 

That scenario certainly makes the VTC more likely, albeit that the GS badge was worn for a relatively short time.  Special VTC unit badges were worn for a while and towards the end of the war the unit’s became affiliated to their local regiment (RSF) as so-called ‘volunteer battalions’.

Edited 15 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Liz Passe]

Thanks. Perhaps getting the badges was the occasion for the photograph to be taken.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Liz Passe said:

Thanks. Perhaps getting the badges was the occasion for the photograph to be taken.

 

I seem to recall that the GS badges were worn at first when VTC unit’s were made VBs, subsequently followed by the regimental badges of their regular affiliates, so that would fit with your supposition.

Edited 15 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

14 hours ago, Rob B said:

Wash your mouth out Broomers. The Royal Scots Fusiliers were a good solid Ayrshire Regiment with its Depot at Churchill Barracks in Ayr.

 

Re-read my post.

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Re-read my post.

 

If it’s any help Steven, the following details explain the overlap between areas associated with the RSF and KOSB:

 

“Militia, Rifle Volunteers and Volunteer Battalions”

 

“In the 1881 reorganisation of the British Army, the county-based militia units were restructured and associated with regular infantry regiments. In 1881, the Royal Scots Fusiliers acquired the 3rd (Militia) Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers (that had originally been the 3rd Battalion, the Scottish Borderers) and the 4th (Militia) Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers, formerly The Prince Regent's Royal Regiment of Ayr and Wigtown Militia. The 4th Battalion was later renamed the 3rd (Militia) Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers. In the 1908 Haldane reforms that included the creation of the Territorial Force (later the Territorial Army), the militia became the "Special Reserve" and the 3rd Battalion became The 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers. 

The 1st Admin Battalion of the Ayrshire Rifle Volunteers was formed in 1860 and soon contained the 14 individual corps of riflemen that had been raised throughout the county as part of the Rifle Volunteer movement. This number of units proved too cumbersome to be easily managed. So in 1873 the battalion was divided in two. The 2nd Admin Battalion had its headquarters in Kilmarnock and its companies were in north Ayrshire. This battalion was consolidated in 1880 as the 1st Ayrshire Rifle Volunteer Corps. In 1887, it was renamed the 1st Volunteer Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers. In common with other volunteer units, the battalion contributed a number of men to the Imperial Volunteers who served in the South African War (1899 - 1902). With the Haldane reforms creating the Territorial Force in 1908, the battalion became the 4th Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Territorial Force). In 1914, the battalion consisted of a Headquarters at Kilmarnock, A Company at Kilmarnock, B Company at Irvine, C Company at Stewarton, D Company at Beith, E Company at Saltcoats, F Company at Dalry, G Company at Darvel and H Company at Kilmarnock. The Ardeer Company, (Territorial Force) formed in 1913 by Nobel's Explosives Factory to guard their factory at Ardeer in the event of war, was attached to 4th Battalion, Royal Scots Fusiliers 

When the 1st Admin Battalion of the Ayrshire Rifle Volunteers was divided in 1873, those companies in the south of the county remained under that title. But in 1880 it became the 2nd Ayrshire Rifle Volunteer Corps and in 1887, the 1st Volunteer Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers. With the Haldane reforms creating the Territorial Force in 1908, the battalion became the 5th Battalion, The Royal Scots Fusiliers (Territorial Force). In 1914, the battalion consisted of a Headquarters and A Company at Ayr, B Company at Catrine, C Company at Maybole, D Company at Stranraer, E Company at Cumnock, F Company at Troon, G Company at Muirkirk and H Company at Dalmellington. 

In 1881, the nine companies of the 1st Roxburgh and Selkirk Rifle Volunteer Corps (formerly of the 1st Dumfriesshire Rifle Volunteers and the Galloway Rifle Volunteer Corps) were assigned to the Royal Scots Fusiliers as their 3rd Volunteer Battalion. However, seven years later, this battalion was handed over to the King's Own Scottish Borderers, becoming the 1st (The Border) Volunteer Battalion, the King's Own Scottish Borderers and in 1908, after amalgamation with the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, The 4th (The Border) Battalion, the King's Own Scottish Borderers (Territorial Force).”

 

However,  the counties assigned to the two regiments as recruiting areas by the time of the First World War had changed to be as follows:

 

Royal Scots Fusiliers – Ayrshire

 

King’s Own Scottish Borderers – Berwickshire, Drumfrieshire, Roxburghshire, Kirkcubrightshire, and Selkirkshire.

 

Edited 16 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

What about the seething metropolisis of Wigtownshire!!!!! (Population in 1911: 31,998)

 

(So we were both right )

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

What about the seething metropolisis of Wigtownshire!!!!! (Population in 1911: 31,998)

 

(So we were both right )

 

Yes, in simple terms the initially quoted areas for the RSF were those allocated to them by Childers in 1881, but there were problems for the KOSB, who struggled with the limits of their own areas and pointed out that some auxiliary units had been poached into the RSF.  Subsequently the RSF gave up those areas and focused exclusively on Ayrshire.  I suspect that population shifts and densities played a part too.

 

It’s also sometimes forgotten that the KOSB had their shared Depot in York in 1873 and did not move to Scotland (Berwick) until 1881 (at which point it still did not have the word ‘Scottish’ in its title).  It seems to have taken some time for it to be thought through where they would recruit, as is reflected by the fact they initially had only one Militia battalion and no VBs at all.  A great deal changed for them between then and the beginning of WW1.  Indeed, in 1881 it had been suggested that the regiment be renamed ‘The York Regiment (King’s Own Borderers)’ - reflecting its then base. Following a campaign against this, it dropped its numeral, but retained the title ‘The King’s Own Borderers’.

In 1887, on becoming the county regiment for four south-eastern Scottish counties, in addition to Berwickshire, it added ‘Scottish’ to its name.  So it was in 1887 that the situation between RSF and KOSB recruiting areas was finally resolved.

 

NB.  Wigtown was associated with the KOSB, I don’t know why it’s not mentioned specifically.

Edited 16 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Rob B]

20 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Re-read my post.

Have just done so, my humble mistake for doubting you. 

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, Rob B said:

Have just done so, my humble mistake for doubting you. 

 

I was starting to doubt myself!