Question about weekly daily/casualty lists

[MParckar]

 I have found my Great-Grandfather Edward William Parckar on the daily casualty list for 30th October 1918 (published weekly on 5th November).  If he appears on the daily casualty list on the 30th October, when roughly would the wounding have occurred?

 

I have looked at the War Diary for the 1/8th (56th Division), and the 1/8th appear to be in training camps with nil casualties between 15th October and 31st October.  I'm trying to work out where he may have incurred his wounds, but it's left me a bit puzzled.

 

Any help would be gratefully received.

 

Mandie

[jay dubaya]

I’d go back a month from the date of the list Mandie.

 

J

[MParckar]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

I’d go back a month from the date of the list Mandie.

 

J

Thank you!

[kenf48]

There are medical records for him on FMP that show he was admitted to hospital, the 18th(Chicago USA) General Hospital at Camiers  on 29 March 1918 with a severe injury to the right knee.  This is coded IX 1 which is IX gunshot wound to lower extremities;  1 Simple flesh contusions and wounds classified as 'slight' or 'severe'.

 

At the time of this wounding he was attached to 56 Machine Gun Battalion.  The record shows he had ten years service, (3 with the Field Force) which means he joined the TF on its formation in 1908, as indicated by the three digit 780 number on his Star roll.

 

I doubt however that this is the wound recorded above.  If he returned to duty the question is did he return to the MG Bn or his parent Battalion.  One way is to look at those who were shown as killed while serving with either unit, then cross reference those to the CWGC database.  A quick look shows these deaths go back at least to 20th September.  

 

This poses further questions, was it a new wound or a recurrence of the old injury and did he in fact go back to either of those units or a completely different Battalion?  If we look at the medal rolls he is a bit of an outlier amongst men who first entered theatre with the 25th Battalion, though it must be said where men previously served in a TF Bn this is shown.

 

Ken

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

I doubt however that this is the wound recorded above.

The casualty Lists are a bit of a hit or miss affair when searching on FMP, FMP Newspapers, The Genealogist etc. Some lists are missing, some are mis-read by optical scanning, and the Lists themselves contained errors. There seem to be significant gaps late 1917 and 1918 on these sites.

 

I have searched them nevertheless for an earlier Casualty Listing for Parckar but not found anything.

 

Normally the Lists report casualties of some 4 weeks or so earlier. From time to time the Lists included catch-ups not previously reported. Would the qualification for a wound badge be linked to publication in the Official Lists ?

 

Ken, I have noted the above for my own benefit as well because I'm often trying to interpret said Lists. Is it still possible that this could be the Listing for the wounding 8 months earlier  -particularly in view of the destruction of records and confusion that occurred around the Spring Offensive of 1918 ?

 

Charlie

[le grand fromage]

3 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

I’d go back a month from the date of the list Mandie.

 

J

 

FWIW I'd go a bit longer, based on what people have added to on a thread I started on 'Munster Fusilier 10506 Richard Hampson Cheeseman'. He was admitted to No 2 General Hospital on the 5th Oct 1918 and then appeared on the casualty lists on 11th Nov 1918. Give it 2-3 days to get past the Regimental Aid Post and the Casualty Clearing Stations before getting to No2 General Hospital I will be looking at him being wounded around the 2-3 Oct 1918 which will be around 6 weeks between wound and the Casualty Listing

[clk]

Hi Mandie,

 

I'd tend to plod through the names of the other men from his regiment on the list to see if they have surviving service papers. I haven't gone through the list, but the first two that I saw seem to have been wounded on 28th September 1918.

 

Allsworth

 

Bannister

Images sourced from Findmypast

 

If you find men from his battalion, you might be able to establish his possible evacuation chain. 

 

Edit:

You could do the same thing for his other wounding - link here

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 14 August , 2019 by clk

[charlie962]

This was his 3rd wound ! So looks like a late Sept 1918 action as suggested above is best bet.

 

Courtesy Findmy Past :

 

 

The 1915 wounding(gas) is referred to in this snippet on FMP

There are other Newspaper articles on FMP including Jan 1916 showing him on the football team for the Machine Gun section of the 8th Middlesex.

Edited 14 August , 2019 by charlie962

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Ken, I have noted the above for my own benefit as well because I'm often trying to interpret said Lists. Is it still possible that this could be the Listing for the wounding 8 months earlier  -particularly in view of the destruction of records and confusion that occurred around the Spring Offensive of 1918 ?

 

 

No, I don't think so, as evidenced by the above newspaper clipping which you have just posted.

 

5 hours ago, MParckar said:

I have looked at the War Diary for the 1/8th (56th Division), and the 1/8th appear to be in training camps with nil casualties between 15th October and 31st October.  I'm trying to work out where he may have incurred his wounds, but it's left me a bit puzzled.

 

You need to look at the diary for the end of September (as noted above - applying the CWGC method the casualties killed in the list all date from the last week of September).  The diary of the 1/8th notes that in operations between the 27th and 30th September,  61 other ranks were wounded, of whom 54 were gassed.

 

Ken

[charlie962]

22 hours ago, kenf48 said:

No, I don't think so,

Thanks, Ken. Yes, I answered my own question in this case. But do you know if a wound stripe was linked to publication in official Casualty List ? And do you have any idea of just how many casualty lists are missing from database of FMP or theGenealogist ?

 

Charlie

 

re Parckar, given that he was M/C Gun section in 8th Mdx in early 1916, why was he not compulsorily trf'd to MGC subsequently rather than just attached ? I thought these trfs were compulsory ? 8th Mdx didn't hang on to him for their football team ?

[ss002d6252]

52 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

But do you know if a wound stripe was linked to publication in official Casualty List ?

It was - all covered here - https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-a-wound-stripe/

 

Craig

[charlie962]

37 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It was - all covered here

Thanks, Craig.  LLT to the rescue again. Hence the importance of late updates of the Daily Casualty Lists perhaps long after the event.

Charlie

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Thanks, Craig.  LLT to the rescue again. Hence the importance of late updates of the Daily Casualty Lists perhaps long after the event.

Charlie

I think they were certainly pushing to make sure all  were entered - I've seen some 6-8 months later (presumably missed out in error and later inserted).

Craig

[charlie962]

Technically the appearance was in the Adjutant General's List but I presume that for most people the only accessible record was the published Daily Casualty List.

[MParckar]

On 14/08/2019 at 21:57, clk said:

Hi Mandie,

 

I'd tend to plod through the names of the other men from his regiment on the list to see if they have surviving service papers. I haven't gone through the list, but the first two that I saw seem to have been wounded on 28th September 1918.

 

Allsworth

 

Bannister

Images sourced from Findmypast

 

If you find men from his battalion, you might be able to establish his possible evacuation chain. 

 

Edit:

You could do the same thing for his other wounding - link here

 

Regards

Chris

That is super helpful! Thank you.

[MParckar]

On 14/08/2019 at 22:43, charlie962 said:

This was his 3rd wound ! So looks like a late Sept 1918 action as suggested above is best bet.

 

Courtesy Findmy Past :

 

 

The 1915 wounding(gas) is referred to in this snippet on FMP

There are other Newspaper articles on FMP including Jan 1916 showing him on the football team for the Machine Gun section of the 8th Middlesex.

Yes, I think you are spot on there.  Thank you!

[MParckar]

Thank you everyone for your help.  I was able to ascertain (with high probability) my G-Grandfather's third wounding was during a battle in Arleux (28-29th September 1918).

 

The information relating to the delay from actual date of wounding to the report in the War Office Daily List was very useful when it came to another of my GGF's records:

 

My G-Grandfather, Edward W Parckar was also wounded during the First Battle of Arras on 28/3/1918.  He was admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds on 29/3/1918 and then transferred to a Casualty Clearing Station on 4/4/1918.  But, he did not appear on the Casualty listing until 3/5/1918, which is 5 weeks later.

 

As for other records on Parckar, I'm afraid it's one of those names that gets mis-spelt often (so far I have records - Parker, Parcker, Parekar).  Keeps me on my toes!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[clk]

Hi Mandie,

 

7 hours ago, MParckar said:

 He was admitted to hospital with gunshot wounds on 29/3/1918 and then transferred to a Casualty Clearing Station on 4/4/1918.

 

The 'normal' order would be field ambulance, casualty clearing station, then hospital. There's a bit about it on the LLT - see here.

 

Regards

Chris

[charlie962]

8 hours ago, MParckar said:

But, he did not appear on the Casualty listing until 3/5/1918

Where did you find that record ? I couldn't see it despite searching in several sources.

 

Charlie

 

edit: here it is:

 

CasList seems pretty clear to me

 

But this is how FindmyPast have read it:

 

Parclur 39373 E. W. (Hounslow)

 

No wonder I didn't find it. Both surname and number wrong.

 

Edited 16 August , 2019 by charlie962