SOUTH LANCS REG

[Guest]

looking for help with any infomation reguarding Private John Gilbert Cartwright 1963 he was reported killed on the 21/4/1915, my cousin who lives in canada found this relative when checking her past and is struggling for any info reguarding J Kenwright 

Edited 13 August , 2019 by Guest
bad spelling

[HolymoleyRE]

38 minutes ago, clarky said:

looking for help with any infomation reguarding Private John Gilbert Cartwright 1963 he was reported killed on the 21/4/1915, my cousin who lives in canada found this relative when checking her past and is struggling for any info reguarding J Kenwright 

Hi Clarky, welcome to the forum, the reason you maybe having trouble looking for 1963 John Gilbert Cartwright, is because as you in part allude it is John Kenwright 1963, 1/4th Battalion South Lancs is the man who died on the 21st April 1915.

 

Edit: doesn't appear that his full service records survived, less Medal Index Card, Medal Rolls and his Register of Effects, all of which indicate he died from wounds. 

 

Regards 

Andy 

Edited 13 August , 2019 by HolymoleyRE

[PRC]

As Andy says, his entry as Kenwright in Soldiers Died in the Great War, (an HMSO publication from the early 1920’s) show that he was born and enlisted Warrington, Lancashire. No place of residence was shown.

 

His Medal Index Card, (a simple card created at the relevant records office c1919 to keep track of service medal awards) shows that he qualified for the 1915 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. He qualified for the 1915 Star as he first landed in a Theatre of War on the 13th February 1915. Other than stating that he died of wounds there is no additional information on the card, so not worth paying to download. The front side can be previewed in a watermarked form at the National Archive website - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3222445

 

And a basic free account at Ancestry will let you see both sides.

 

The parent site, the Long, Long Trail shows that:

 

1/4th Battalion
August 1914 : in Warrington and Newton-le-Willows. Part of South Lancashire Brigade in West Lancashire Division.
13 February 1915 : left the Brigade and landed at Le Havre. Attached on arrival to 7th Brigade in 3rd Division.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-prince-of-waless-volunteers-south-lancashire-regiment/

 

Given that Service Number he may either have been pre-war Territorial mobilised on the outbreak of War or a very early enlistment in th opening months of Britains involvement.

 

The Service Medal Rolls, (only on Ancestry), will show what units he served with in a Theatre of War but given that he landed in France on the same date as the unit he died with, it’s very, very likely he didn’t serve with any other.

 

His entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, (Ancestry \ Fold3) will show who the balance of his pay went to, and also who subsequently received his War Gratuity. This can help confirm a family relationship. The clever people here can also calculate from the amount of his War Gratuity whether he joined pre-war or roughly when he enlisted. It The Register can also sometimes show if he died in a medical facility like a Casualty Clearing Station or Field Ambulance and if a pension was awarded to a dependant(s).

 

While the Battalion War Diary almost certainly won’t mention him by name, it will give some idea of what they were up and where. If you have an Ancestry subscription you can see it there, or you can download it from the National Archive, current price £3.50.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352065

 

You also have the option of downloading the Brigade War Diary for the same price. Advantages to that is that it contains copies of the War Diaries for all the units that make up the Brigade so you can see what was happening to neighbouring units, they are usually typed rather than hand-written, and they quite often retain appendices and maps that may have gone walkies from the Battalion version. That too is on Ancestry.

National Archive is here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052960

 

Also in the same Brigade at this time were the 1st Battalion Wiltshire Regiment. There War Diary has been transcribed and made available on the Royal Berkshire Regiment Museuam website. However the entries for the 20th and 21st April 1915 shows them Resting and on Digging Fatigues at Dickbusche in Belgium.

https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/research/war-diaries

 

It would seem likely that John may possibly have received his fatal wounds a few days prior to his death as he has been medically evacuated back to the large town of Bailleul on the Franco-Belgian border.

 

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website has this to say about the history of the Bailleul Communal Cemetery, Nord, where he is buried. Bailleul was occupied on 14 October 1914 by the 19th Brigade and the 4th Division. It became an important railhead, air depot and hospital centre, with the 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 11th, 53rd, 1st Canadian and 1st Australian Casualty Clearing Stations quartered in it for considerable periods. It was a Corps headquarters until July 1917, when it was severely bombed and shelled, and after the Battle of Bailleul (13-15 April 1918), it fell into German hands and was not retaken until 30 August 1918. The earliest Commonwealth burials at Bailleul were made at the east end of the communal cemetery and in April 1915, when the space available had been filled, the extension was opened on the east side of the cemetery. The extension was used until April 1918, and again in September, and after the Armistice graves were brought in from the neighbouring battlefields.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2000047/bailleul-communal-cemetery,-nord/

 

There is no concentration report attached to their webpage for John Kenwright, so very much looks like ploy K.5 was where he was originally buried.

 

There may be more in local papers. As well as bolt on’s \ premium subscriptions to the major genealogy sites, there are also subscription sites like the British Newspaper Archives. However if you’re in the UK then your local library will normally subscribe to the British Newspaper Archive giving you free, unlimited access – which is a good thing given the optical character reader software used ! Most also subscribe to the Library edition of Ancestry or FindMyPast, and sometimes both.

 

if you live locally there is also the option of seeing where the County Archive copies of local papers are stored but that is a real needle in a haystack - you have no guarantee that there is any report or when and where it might turn up.

 

Hope some of that helps,

 

Peter

 

Edit to add: The Government Probate Service holds a Soldiers Will for him. It will probably says something simple like I leave everything to my mother \ father, but it could provide a sample of his handwriting and signature. I believe the Probate Service Service have recently drastically cut the price to purchase a digital copy, so you may want to consider it.

 

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=Kenwright&SurnameGrants=Kenwright&YearOfDeath=1915&YearOfDeathGrants=1915&IsGrantSearch=False&IsCalendarSearch=False#soldiers

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 13 August , 2019 by PRC
Soldiers Will details, add Territorial Force mobilisation and rewrite Register of Soldiers Effects paragraph

[MaxD]

If I may dare to add to Peter's very comprehensive information.  The Effects register to which he refers shows he died at No 8 Casualty Clearing Station which at the time was indeed located at Bauilleul.  It also shows he left his effects to his wife Beatrice, they are in the 1911 census in Warrington, married 3 years with 3 children.  He received a minimum gratuity of £3, the gratuity calculator (thank you Craig) cannot show whether he was a pre-war or during war enlistment.  (1/4th were Warrington based pre-war).  He arrived in France with the battalion on 13 February 1915. 

 

His battalion were in the Dickebusch area to the south west of Ypres in April 1915, in the trenches for about half the month.  There was no major action in that month but regular shelling both on the trenches and on the rear areas when they were out of the line causing small numbers of casualties almost every day, names are not given (as is usual).  The casualty clearing station was about 8 miles away so he was probably wounded around the 15th or so of the month. 

 

Max

 

 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

If I may dare to add to Peter's very comprehensive information. 

 

You dare, you dare

Thanks Max – it’s just the stuff that’s in the public domain and some simple next steps. (I didn’t even mention checking men with nearby service numbers to see if they have surviving records or tracking down CCS & FA admission & discharges books – that’s how restrained I was being!)

 

6 hours ago, clarky said:

looking for help with any infomation reguarding Private John Gilbert Cartwright 1963 he was reported killed on the 21/4/1915, my cousin who lives in canada found this relative when checking her past and is struggling for any info reguarding J Kenwright 

 

The General Registrars Office quarterly index of births for England & Wales 1837 – 1911 has not one instance of a child being registered as John Gilbert Cartwright. There is just one John Gilbert Kenwright – his birth was registered in the Warrington District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1888. Mothers’ maiden name was NICHOLLS.

 

The baptism of a John Gilbert Kenwright, no date of birth transcribed, took place at St Anne, Warrington on the 15th March 1888. His parents were William and Sarah Kenwright. There will be more information in the original source document but that is not available to me.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQV2-3JW

 

Then, as now, you had 42 days after the birth to register the child with the Civil Authorities, so the date of baptism and the period of registration are not incompatible.

 

(A William Kenwright married a Sarah NICHOLS in the Warrington District in Q3 of 1885).

 

Seems a big leap from Cartwright to Kenwright – how sure are you that the right branch of the family tree is being investigated?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Guest]

thank you so much for the work you have all put in for me it was in fact Kenwright as well, and i shal follow the leads you have all suggested 

 

[PRC]

On 13/08/2019 at 11:06, MaxD said:

It also shows he left his effects to his wife Beatrice, they are in the 1911 census in Warrington, married 3 years with 3 children.

 

The 1911 Census of England and Wales was the first to be completed by the householder rather than a census taker going door to door. The householder, (or whoever they delegated it to) then signed a declaration that the answers given were true to the best of their knowledge and belief. It looks like John Gilbert Kenwright completed the return form his family, and they were living at 15 Forster Street, Warrington.

 

Here is a crop of the declaration from the form, which if there is nothing more to add seems a good way to end the thread.....

 

[sally]

Hello,

I know this is a very old thread, but I have just discovered this site. I am a descendent of John Gilbert Kenwright, he was my Great, Great Grandfather. His wife was indeed Beatrcice whom remarried Mr Peers after losing her husband. She had three children one of whom was also Beatrice (my great grandmother). I have his obituary and only one photo of him. I am hoping to get in contact with the person who started this post to find out how their research has gone.

 

Sally 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum Sally. Unfortunately, the thread originator  is marked as Guest. This means that they are no longer a member of the forum, and we won’t hold any contact information for them. It’s possible I may get to Bailleul   on my forthcoming visit so might be able to get you a photo of his grave if you’d like one? 

[sally]

Hello Michelle, 

that would be very much appreciated, unfortunately I am a bit far away (Australia). 
thank you so much.

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

20 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Guest. This means that they are no longer a member of the forum, and we won’t hold any contact information for them.

Would Sally be able to send Guest a Personal Message via the forum's PM service, or is that also inactivated?
Edit: I see it is deactivated. That's a shame.

Edited 12 March , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Michelle Young]

8 minutes ago, sally said:

Hello Michelle, 

that would be very much appreciated, unfortunately I am a bit far away (Australia). 
thank you so much.

 

 

It depends how the day goes, we plan to walk some of the hills not far from Bailleuil, and I think we go through the town on our way to our accommodation. I will make a note, and do my best! 

[Michelle Young]

14 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Would Sally be able to send Guest a Personal Message via the forum's PM service, or is that also inactivated?
Edit: I see it is deactivated. That's a shame.

No because when a member becomes Guest, all information goes, no email address retained. 

[sally]

I have this lovely newspaper article of Grandpa Gilbert’s death, if anyone is interested. It fills in some of the gaps. 
 

 

[Michelle Young]

Hello @sally

I visited today and said hello from his family in Australia 

[Matlock1418]

Dependants' pension index card

John KENWRIGHT, 1963, South Lancashire Regt.

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

31.7.87 = was his widow's DoB [necessary to know becasue if she had been 35 or over she would have received an age supplement - obviously not the case here]

22/6 pw = for widow 10/- pw pension plus 5/-, 3/6, 2/- and 2/- pw allowances respectively for the children [typically to age 16]

DEAD in 1930 = is the end of the claim which would seem to agree about/after when youngest child reached 16 [had widow perhaps remarried or died by then? - from rereading @sally above it appears she had married Mr PEERS so she would have lost her pension but continued to receive the children's allowances]

M

Edited 19 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[sally]

5 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Hello @sally

I visited today and said hello from his family in Australia 

Michelle I can’t thank you enough, that means the world x. 

[sally]

5 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Dependants' pension index card

John KENWRIGHT, 1963, South Lancashire Regt.

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

31.7.87 = was his widow's DoB [necessary to know becasue if she had been 35 or over she would have received an age supplement - obviously not the case here]

22/6 pw = for widow 10/- pw pension plus 5/-, 3/6, 2/- and 2/- pw allowances respectively for the children [typically to age 16]

DEAD in 1930 = is the end of the claim which would seem to agree about/after when youngest child reached 16 [had widow perhaps remarried or died by then? - from rereading @sally above it appears she had married Mr PEERS so she would have lost her pension but continued to receive the children's allowances]

M

Yes Beatrice indeed remarried to Ernest Peers and had one more son. I wasn’t aware of Hilda Barlow (born out of wedlock) so that is interesting. I had tried to look for this document but unfortunately not yet savvy with all this research. So would there also be a will? Written in his hand?.

thank you for your help with my research much appreciated. 

[clk]

Hi Sally,

9 minutes ago, sally said:

So would there also be a will? Written in his hand?.

For a small fee, a low resolution B&W scan of what was accepted as being his will is available from here. It may well only consist of a very few words though.

Regards
Chris

[Matlock1418]

18 minutes ago, sally said:

So would there also be a will? Written in his hand?.

It seems probably [written in his hand] - try https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills - there seems to be one

Not expensive but probably won't say much than 'I leave all my money and effects to my wife'

If you have not already found it it would be good to find his entry in the Register of Soldiers Effects [can be found on Ancestry] - will be likely to show who was the Legatee [person to whom his effects were to be assigned according to his will].  Also handy since it will likely show his War Gratuity [likely to the same legatee]

M

Edit: Doh! Crossed with Chris  

Edited 19 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit