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MParckar

1/8th Middlesex Battalion - further help needed please (scroll to bottom post 19/8)

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MParckar
19 hours ago, charlie962 said:

MParckar,

 

Findmypast is pretty good for pre WW1 military records, I find. But each of the genealogical sites has its ++ and -- . A search shows a Boer War record for an E Parker 242 of 6th Middlesex but nothing more to go on.

 

Your GGGF Edward might have served, you say. It would be worth checking his marriage cert and the birth certs of his children to see if they show him in the Army.

 

The 1891 and 1901 census show him as packer or labourer.  (as you say, Parker). ie nothing military.

 

The Sergeant in the photo has 2 medal ribbons , I think, as pointed out in post2 above. Can we get a clearer view ? Whilst they could be South Africa (QSA and KSA) the 1901 Census gave no hint of this for Edward.

 

Charlie

 

 

Charlie, thanks for the heads up on the E Parker, Sergeant in the 6th Middlesex on FMP.  I’ve had a look at the 6th Middlesex and it appears to be a part time Battalion rather than a regular Battalion.

I’ve managed to find another Sergeant (F Berry 4307) from this Battalion that went to the Boer War also and all his Attestation papers and medicals were done at Hounslow, which is where my GG Grandfather lived.  So, it looks like a real possibility this record ‘E Parker’ is of my ancestor.

 

Also, I found a website with info on rough enlistment dates based on service numbers.  His number of 242, would put him at about 1882, when he was unmarried.  I’m wondering if he could have enlisted in 1882 and served partly in the Boer and be back (either injured or time expired), by the 1901 Census? 

 

He had a brother that served in the Boer War with the 1st King’s Dragoon Guards (3964). 

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MParckar
1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

The Territorial Force in April 1908 replaced the Volunteer Battalions. These ran on similar grounds and many men simply resigned to the TF in 1908 when the Volunteers disbanded.

 

Pre-war the standard rules of promotion would tend to mean that a man reaching serjeant would typically not do so without having a reasonable length of service and experience.

 

Craig

Thanks Craig, would 9 years be enough for that sort of promotion? I’m thinking he may have enlisted 1882 and served as a sergeant in the Boer War 

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ss002d6252
14 minutes ago, MParckar said:

Thanks Craig, would 9 years be enough for that sort of promotion? I’m thinking he may have enlisted 1882 and served as a sergeant in the Boer War 

Time wise, 9 years would be sufficient to get to serjeant.

 

Craig

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charlie962
10 hours ago, MParckar said:

I also wonder the meaning of the badge in the Sergeant’s hat?

if you mean that white mark on the side of his cap, I thought it was just a blemish on the photo ?

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charlie962

For the Boer War bit, we risk straying out of the Forum's ambit .

 

I note that wiki says this about Middlesex of the time:

The 1st and 2nd battalions both saw turns in India during the late 19th century. Following the outbreak of the Second Boer War in 1899, the 2nd battalion embarked for active service in South Africa in December 1899 and took part in the storming of Alleman's Nek in June 1900.[15]

The 5th and 6th (Militia) battalions were also embodied for active service during the Second Boer War. 760 men of the 5th battalion (formerly the Royal Elthorne Light Infantry) was reported to return home on the SS Assaye in September 1902, after the war had ended.[16] The 6th battalion (formerly the Royal East Middlesex Militia) was embodied in December 1899 (when it was still the 4th Battalion), and 530 officers and men left for service in South Africa in February 1900.[17]

 

All the time remembering that Parker is not an uncommon name, the same E Parker 242 seems also to have been a sgt in the 2nd Bn at the time. I think you shouldn't get your hopes up too quickly but it does need to be checked out or eliminated. For example there were at least 7 Parkers in the 6th Bn for that war ! There are specialist forums on that period, the most obvious being angloboerwar;com

 

Charlie

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travers61

I too think the "badge' on the serjeants hat is a blemish or mark on the photo. I don't recall any badges being worn in that place on a TF hat at that time.

 

The 8th Battalion Middlesex Regiment was formed in 1908 by renaming the 2nd Volunteer Battalion Middlesex Regiment, and thus your GGGF's volunteer service could have been in that unit before 1908, esp as he is a serjeant in the photo. The 2nd Volunteer Bn had been before the 1881 Army reforms the 8th Middlesex (South West Middlesex) Volunteer Rifle Corps.

 

The 1908 reforms disbanded or renamed most volunteer battalions, rifle battalions & militia, leaving most county regiments with just regular BNs, Reserve Bns & TF Bn's. A real tidy up of odd sized units as well.  This was partly due to the increased tension in Europe. It was resisted in some quarters and units like the Inns of Court Regiment & hon artillery comoany, were allocated battalion numbers in the new all TF London Regiment, but were never obliged to change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middlesex_Regiment

 

If he was a full time soldier at the time of his marriage & childrens births, this should have been given as his occupation. If part time I would expect his civilian occupation to show.  From what i know of the London Regiment TF, they did a few full time military staff for admin & training.

 

Another place to look is the 1918/1919 absent voters rolls if they survive. They should give service no & unit of all voter serving in the army. Survival of these is patchy & if not on the list at LLT, try ancestry or the local record office.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

Thats great that you have the newspaper report for the 1922 inquest. The actual inquest papers (maybe at London Metropolitian Archives if they survive) may say more, but I suspect not.  If he worked for a large brewery eg Watneys, Fullers etc they may have produced a book of employees war service, worth looking at LMA, Imperial War Museum online catalouge, or Local archive.

 

Re late marriages I don't think in 1890 the volunteers served overseas, but it did happen in the 2nd Boer War. Many marriages then happened on days such as Boxing Day, Easter, as it was one of the few days people had off work, so this could explain it the wait. He could have been away elsewhere in the UK during the pregnancy for his own work, or finishing off a stint in the regular army. This may not show on the cert, as he was by then a civilian.

 

The 1914 HQ of the 8th Middlesex is shown here on page 349:

 

http://www.steppingforwardlondon.org/assets/docs/stepping_forward_full.pdf

 

1477992616_ScreenShot2019-08-20at14_13_00.png.78e68624b7c7d3409bb68964806ba95d.png

 

 

 

 

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Mark1959

 

 

Assume this is one of your relations:
Admitted 29/3/18 to 18 General Hospital. E Parcker Private 39372. Age: 31. Transferred from sick convoy No. 6 Ambulance Train. Previously at  No. 42 Casualty Clearing Station (28/03/1918.). 10 years service at that time with 2 years and 8 months in theatre.Gunshot wound IX (1) right knee, severe To Hospital Ship 04/04/18. Unit: 1/8th Battalion Middlesex Regiment Attached 56th Machine Gun Battalion.
Record of No. 18 General Hospital: 27/03/1918 (II Convoy) to 30/03/1918 (I Convoy) at CAMIERS, FRANCE 
Edited by Mark1959

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Mark1959

GGGF Edward Parker born 1868. There are 2 Boer war medal rolls. Both for the Queens South Africa Medal. The one shows the award of the QSA with 1901 clasp to a Sergeant E Parker of the 6th Battalion Middlesex Regiment. His number is given as 242. This shows he was "time expired" - i.e. his period of service had finished. There is another roll for the QSA showing the award of the Cape Colony clasp to the QSA to the same man. This record suggest 242 Sgt E Parker was invalided home on 8/?/1901. The month could be 1(Jan) or 8(Aug) - I suspect the latter - but it is smudged. If the former he could have been back at home in time for the 1901 census.

edit 

Actually on second look the month is probably a 1. Mark you own mind up. Bottom one of the 3. Others included for comparison. Image courtesy of Ancestryparker.jpg.c1a25e25a63e7572572e810bd07fe305.jpgcestry

 

https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-units/573-middlesex-regiment, If you search for parker e one of the records shows 242 Parker in 2nd Mx so was he transferred into the 6th or vice versa? Bit off subject for this forum. Think there is another forum for pre-WW1 campaigns

Edited by Mark1959

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MParckar
11 hours ago, charlie962 said:

For the Boer War bit, we risk straying out of the Forum's ambit .

 

I note that wiki says this about Middlesex of the time:

The 1st and 2nd battalions both saw turns in India during the late 19th century. Following the outbreak of the Second Boer War in 1899, the 2nd battalion embarked for active service in South Africa in December 1899 and took part in the storming of Alleman's Nek in June 1900.[15]

The 5th and 6th (Militia) battalions were also embodied for active service during the Second Boer War. 760 men of the 5th battalion (formerly the Royal Elthorne Light Infantry) was reported to return home on the SS Assaye in September 1902, after the war had ended.[16] The 6th battalion (formerly the Royal East Middlesex Militia) was embodied in December 1899 (when it was still the 4th Battalion), and 530 officers and men left for service in South Africa in February 1900.[17]

 

All the time remembering that Parker is not an uncommon name, the same E Parker 242 seems also to have been a sgt in the 2nd Bn at the time. I think you shouldn't get your hopes up too quickly but it does need to be checked out or eliminated. For example there were at least 7 Parkers in the 6th Bn for that war ! There are specialist forums on that period, the most obvious being angloboerwar;com

 

Charlie

Thank you Charlie for the great information!  I will head over to angloboer and check out that site for anything more on the Boer period.  I was hoping that by tracing the Boer records, it might lead me to my GGGF's WW1 involvement with the Middlesex Regiment.  But I am now thinking, the photo was taken to commemorate his son's enlistment and he wore his army uniform for the photo and didn't necessarily serve overseas in WW1.  

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MParckar
10 hours ago, travers61 said:

I too think the "badge' on the serjeants hat is a blemish or mark on the photo. I don't recall any badges being worn in that place on a TF hat at that time.

 

The 8th Battalion Middlesex Regiment was formed in 1908 by renaming the 2nd Volunteer Battalion Middlesex Regiment, and thus your GGGF's volunteer service could have been in that unit before 1908, esp as he is a serjeant in the photo. The 2nd Volunteer Bn had been before the 1881 Army reforms the 8th Middlesex (South West Middlesex) Volunteer Rifle Corps.

 

The 1908 reforms disbanded or renamed most volunteer battalions, rifle battalions & militia, leaving most county regiments with just regular BNs, Reserve Bns & TF Bn's. A real tidy up of odd sized units as well.  This was partly due to the increased tension in Europe. It was resisted in some quarters and units like the Inns of Court Regiment & hon artillery comoany, were allocated battalion numbers in the new all TF London Regiment, but were never obliged to change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middlesex_Regiment

 

If he was a full time soldier at the time of his marriage & childrens births, this should have been given as his occupation. If part time I would expect his civilian occupation to show.  From what i know of the London Regiment TF, they did a few full time military staff for admin & training.

 

Another place to look is the 1918/1919 absent voters rolls if they survive. They should give service no & unit of all voter serving in the army. Survival of these is patchy & if not on the list at LLT, try ancestry or the local record office.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

Thats great that you have the newspaper report for the 1922 inquest. The actual inquest papers (maybe at London Metropolitian Archives if they survive) may say more, but I suspect not.  If he worked for a large brewery eg Watneys, Fullers etc they may have produced a book of employees war service, worth looking at LMA, Imperial War Museum online catalouge, or Local archive.

 

Re late marriages I don't think in 1890 the volunteers served overseas, but it did happen in the 2nd Boer War. Many marriages then happened on days such as Boxing Day, Easter, as it was one of the few days people had off work, so this could explain it the wait. He could have been away elsewhere in the UK during the pregnancy for his own work, or finishing off a stint in the regular army. This may not show on the cert, as he was by then a civilian.

 

The 1914 HQ of the 8th Middlesex is shown here on page 349:

 

http://www.steppingforwardlondon.org/assets/docs/stepping_forward_full.pdf

 

1477992616_ScreenShot2019-08-20at14_13_00.png.78e68624b7c7d3409bb68964806ba95d.png

 

 

 

 

Thank you for all the fantastic information and pointers for me to further my research!

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MParckar
9 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

 

 

Assume this is one of your relations:
Admitted 29/3/18 to 18 General Hospital. E Parcker Private 39372. Age: 31. Transferred from sick convoy No. 6 Ambulance Train. Previously at  No. 42 Casualty Clearing Station (28/03/1918.). 10 years service at that time with 2 years and 8 months in theatre.Gunshot wound IX (1) right knee, severe To Hospital Ship 04/04/18. Unit: 1/8th Battalion Middlesex Regiment Attached 56th Machine Gun Battalion.
Record of No. 18 General Hospital: 27/03/1918 (II Convoy) to 30/03/1918 (I Convoy) at CAMIERS, FRANCE 

 

8 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

GGGF Edward Parker born 1868. There are 2 Boer war medal rolls. Both for the Queens South Africa Medal. The one shows the award of the QSA with 1901 clasp to a Sergeant E Parker of the 6th Battalion Middlesex Regiment. His number is given as 242. This shows he was "time expired" - i.e. his period of service had finished. There is another roll for the QSA showing the award of the Cape Colony clasp to the QSA to the same man. This record suggest 242 Sgt E Parker was invalided home on 8/?/1901. The month could be 1(Jan) or 8(Aug) - I suspect the latter - but it is smudged. If the former he could have been back at home in time for the 1901 census.

edit 

Actually on second look the month is probably a 1. Mark you own mind up. Bottom one of the 3. Others included for comparison. Image courtesy of Ancestryparker.jpg.c1a25e25a63e7572572e810bd07fe305.jpgcestry

 

https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-units/573-middlesex-regiment, If you search for parker e one of the records shows 242 Parker in 2nd Mx so was he transferred into the 6th or vice versa? Bit off subject for this forum. Think there is another forum for pre-WW1 campaigns

Yes, that record from WW1 medicals records is my GGF (far right in the original photo).  Thank you for the Boer War record.....off topic I know, but hopefully further research will help me link my (potential) GGGF's Boer Service to any service in WW1.  Hadn't come across those records, so have proved very useful in determining that it was possible for someone to be active in the Boer and be home in time for the census. 

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charlie962
On 20/08/2019 at 17:26, Mark1959 said:

Assume this is one of your relations:

Mark, This has already been covered in the other thread (see post19 above for link)

Charlie

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charlie962
16 hours ago, MParckar said:

so have proved very useful in determining that it was possible for someone to be active in the Boer and be home in time for the census. 

Yes, that is a good find.

Charlie

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