Identification of convalescent RFC officers 1917

[Madmeg]

Hi All,

I've had a serious stroke of luck in the last few days and want to share the love...

 

This group photo of my grandfather William James Pearson taken while he was convalescing at Hillington House turns out to be one of a set. One of the pictures was published in the tatler on 24th October 1917 along with the names of the participants. I have been hoping to put names to these men for several years and now I can finally do so.

 

The photograph below is my copyright and is not the same as the one on the Tatler. The Tatler version can be found here https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1917-01-01/1917-12-31?basicsearch=hillington hall&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false but will require a subscription (or library sub) to view.

 

I have therefore added the names from the Tatler list to my photo- along with whatever biographical details I have been able to find (so far - will add as time allows).I''ve used FMP military records and cross referenced to the Xcel spreadsheets from the airhistory site. My photo is behind glass and had to be stitched together hence not so great quality but should be of help to anyone interested in these men.

 

EDIT June 2020

As a number of these men have now been identified I am "unbolding" and "striking through"those who are NOT the men in the photo (for some clarity) - I won't remove the extra details however, but will leave them up for future reference

 

In GREEN are those I would still like to get more confirmation on

 

Left to right starting at the back row:

2nd Lt A.B Williams - ?Archibald Boniface Llewellyn Williams/Arthur Basil Williams/Arthur Benjamin Cotton Williams- unsure.UPDATE- Medical records, 2 Lt AB Williams age 20, years service 1, concussion,15/8/17 (no end date) , religion C/E, disposition RFC "E".. Nov 1917 Att RFC 2nd LT AB Williams, age 20 , 3 4/12, concussion,  no start date- end date 28/11/17, aux Hp Shirley Pk, ward 25,CE, RFC "E". Or there is A.B llew Williams S africa inf and RFC who does get a cas card- 15 sq but not until 12/18. UPDATE2 Arthur Basil Williams b 18/9/1892 bridgenorth Shropshire, d 1977 Ealing LONDON, father psossibly Charles d 1939 Herefordshire (ABW benficiary will also Mary Ellen (? mother). But he's older than 20. Located in 1901 but not in 1911.

 

2nd Lt F.H -Frederick Horace Beer-Sgt NCO flying officer gazetted mar 17. UPDATE- b 29/3/1894- NB birth is given as 1890, 1894 and 1895 on RFC form! , 169 East High St ,Forfar, moved Northumberland, NoK J. S or L Beer wife.  RFC form- 9 Roberts St Forfar , Mrs ?. H Beer wife. Disch 1919.No 553 27/1/13. Discharge 11/3/17.12/2/15 enteric fever;28/5/15 to England London General Hospital Camberwell;4/6/15 furlough to 13/7/15;13/7/15 rejoined RAS [sic]. Discharged for commission 11/3/17.Will received 11/2/18. UPDATE - birth date 1894 not 1890. Engineer , Birkenhead. Service-Oxford 12/8/16; Reading 12/8/16; 16/8/16 4RS; 30/9/16 64 sq;~= ....; 12/?6/17 48 RS waddington? [watermark obscures];Unfit 29/8/17 ABO, 2/10/17 ABO to 14/11/17 Norwich -without flying;29/?/17 to 25/2/18 Hants, employed air ministry.FO 29/3/17, Flt cmdr T/Cpt 22/1/18. [NB I can find no English birth for a Frederick Horace between 1888-1896- suggest foreign born?correction- possible 1895 hackney d 1979 SOM- not found on FreeBMD- parents Fred and Lily brother Wilfred- TBC]

 

2nd Lt P.E. -Percy Edward -Towler-gazetted 24/5/17, injured Hendon 25/6/17(!). UPDATE- HAC member list year of admission 1915 :unit 3-4:27 Vallingers Road kings Lynn [at same address is Sydney Arthur Towler 1916 unit 2-4]HAC RNR- 16/11/15- 5743,[a list of what appear to be dates ] 28/5/17 ?es com RFC:HAC [handwritten list] 26/11/15 Percy Towler 27 vallinger Road Kings Lynn.HAC[card]number 5743 Percy edward Towler - 1916 Pte Res Bn;1917 Gaz RFC and RAF 2/Lt; date joining HAC 2/12/15; rank and unit 2/4 3/4,commissioned 23/5/17 RFC;Highest rank- per A F list June 1919.Cas Card- 25/6/17 RFC Hendon taxied machine into hedge , injured

 

Capt G Davies- no further info at this time

 

Lt S.P.A -Stanley Philip Angus- Bousfield-bc 1895 3rd Seaforth Highlanders gazetted RFC 3/4/17  UPDATE MC,OBE, b1/8/1895 [per card- birth actually reg 1899!] of Woodside SE25 London relative Mother, 3rd Btn Seaforth Highlanders.d 22/10/1961. Service - 2/17 53 RS; 18/4/17 51 RS; 25/10/17 52 TS; 7/1/18 48 TS;25/2/18 44 TS 27 wing.Lt effective 1/5/17. [nb some details not included - ]. Unfit 21/5/17 to 25/2/18. mar Vereker/dawson 1920, mar Adams 1929. D 1961 marylebone.Father Edwin VB , mother Florence, brother Hambleton Edwin Neville, Meyrick Thomas Seymour.UPDATE2- licencee Royal oak Feltwell Norfolk 1936-c1943. Father Edwin Paul Davenport mth Florence Custance (wikitree)

 

Lt G.E. Craig-?George Eric Gwynne Craig 48 Canadians-bc1892 UPDATE 2/5/1892, father JT Craig, Finn View, Killygordon , Donegal Ireland, injured 2/7/18 [other details from 1918 omitted],48 Canadian 3 ? pioneer; Service- 29/3/17 5 sq, 4/7/17 HE (??) , 17/7/17 sch of TT until fit to fly. unfit 15/12/17 to 22/2/18.UPDATE2- nice picture here https://www.geni.com/people/George-Craig/6000000017259642428  list of air crashes http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Acc1918b.htm

 

Capt C.E.W - Charles Edward William- Foster- 1st Australian Field Artillery, 40 sq Gosport, gazetted 16/5/16, 10sq 22./1/17 wounded. UPDATE- medica record, age 21, service 7, in the command 29/12,concussion, disch date 3/3/17, 30 days, 26 Park Lane. Cas card-  10 sq 22/1/17 collided in air wounded France RAF BE2.. Australian Embarkation rolls- Foster Charles Edward William age 19, number 251 1st Field Artillery Brigade 2nd Battery, single, Valley Heights western Line NSW, CN Foster father , Cof E joined 24/8/14,embarked Sydney HMAT Argyleshire A8. Resigned [16/15/16?]

 

Lt K.A- Kenneth Andrew- Creery- gazetted flying officer 22/11/15,3sq 27/12/16- cas rep OK  UPDATE - A/S M Creery father 1389 Jervis Road Vancouver BC,resigned 1919 ill health, LT effective 1/4/18;Service- 6 RS; 6TS from RS 16/3/16;1RS 29/5/16 as FO;EF3 5/7/16 morane pilot; DAE x1 23/7/17 as ?ferry? pilot;24/6/17 Hendon AAP;25/?/17 RFC NEP; effective 31/8/16 T/Lt;unfit 6/7/17- ?1/9/17 ; absentee 15/10/17;unfit 15/11/17 to 28/3/18 - proceed to canada.MH106- 28/4/17 to 16/7/17 -sprained knee,, age 23 2 1/2 service, discharged to Aux Hs Kings Lynn; 81 days treatment, disposal to RFC "E" [line below is C F Cunningham 27, 4 6/12, 2 LT- also knee injury also to RFC E 30/4/17-22/6/17] UPDATE- sheeping record 1918- 24y 2 m , single, soldier, British, English, last residence London, Uncle Mr W Hulbert , Stokehill Lodge Cosham Hants, in transit to vancouve BC. UPDATE3 from another thread "27/12/16 with 3 Squadron R.F.C, on Artillery Observation Patrol, shot up & damaged in combat with four Hostile Aircraft & forced to land near Guedecourt. Lt. K.A. Creery & Lt. J. Claudet uninjured.)"

 

Capt E.C- Ernest Claude- Winkley- b 1896, 23/3/16- 11th E Surrey to 7rs Netherton, UPDATE- b2/11/1896, NoK father EW Winkley, Junior Constitutional Club Picadilly, c/o Bank of England Hull.11th Bn east surrey Regt. Service - 26/1/18 S of A [more records for 1918 omitted];1/4/18 Capt;unemployed list 3/19;French speaker;unfit 17/6/18; 10/11/15 2nd Bde Castle Bromwich[5rs]; 17/1/16 7RS aviation;11/4/16 48sq appt FO;20/4/16 EFN10 sq;7/2/17 Home estab;50RS 65 TS [undated];27/7/17 EF21 Sq;15/8/17 Home Estab to report; St Leonards 20/12/17 for duty cancelled;27/12/17 HQC Bde St leonards;31/12/17 Chelsea Barracks att Instr course;11/4/16 2nd lt FO;1/9/16 Lt;14/12/17 T/Capt flt comdr; Unfit 17/?/17 (8 or 9?) to 24/11/17 without flying; unfit 17/12/17 to 26/2/18 wth flying. UPDATE 2- b 1896 Scarborough YRK, father Ernest William, mother Mary Saner. found 1901 NOT FOUND 1911.photo gravestone - http://members.iinet.net.au/~suegar/StudphotMI_3.htm, ref 5RAS http://www.aviationarchaeology.org.uk/marg/officerss-z.htm

 

Seated middle row

Lt E.V.D- Edward Vivanti Dewar - Mathews, b1894, D of C LI, gazetted 1/9/16, cas report-24/8/16 (ok)UPDATE- b 11/4/1894, Wandsworth, NoK E(Ebeneezer) Mathews father, 49a Clanricarde Gdns bayswater. [Mother Louisa] Lt 1/4/18. 1/8/16 15s qual obs;9/12/16 15s home est appt as ?/66;7/4/17 A sq CFS;26/7/17 84sq asst inst;11/9/17 5 Bde ?up? p; [several undated movements follow];22/1/18 17 TS;[undated] 17 TS as asst inst' 1/10/16 T/Lt while serving with RFC;7/4/17 T2nd Lt FO; 25/7/17 injured; unfit 4/9/17 to 26/4/18 [flying duties after 10/1/18]. Mar Chelsea, Ellen Jane O'Farrell 1919 .Death 3/7/1949, Probate Oxfordshire1949. UPDATE- 2- not Edward but surely must be his brother...http://firstworldwar.westminster.org.uk/?tag=boer-war, and rather confusingly tis is from the Westminster war memorial...http://firstworldwar.westminster.org.uk/?page_id=15 (lots of other names here) and here https://firstworldwaronthisday.blogspot.com/2017/12/416-died-on-this-day-sun-09121917.html

 

2nd Lt H. S -Herbert Sidney- Mahoney, 31TS UK 7/8/17 cas report injured. UPDATE- b 24/11/1890, 20 Eastlake rd , Coldharbour Lane SE, NoK mother, Effective 2nd Lt 1/4/18 on probation. Cinamatographic manager Wardour St. 11/5 or 6/17 2s ?a;22/6/17 31TS;injured home 7/8/17; Bde NE Off pa? 21/8/17; 10/1/18 31 TS light duty no flying; 21/6/17 t2ndLT on probation.Unfit 15/9/17 to 4/3/18.- further instruction in flying. Medical record for Sgt HS mahoney of RFA not transcribed- probably wrong man. UPDATE 2- 1901 Mother Mary A Mahoney (plus Alfred H Charles J brothers) , living Camberwell, HS born Southwark. Eastlake Rd address on RFC record is in Camberwell/Southwark. . 1911 Lambeth with mother Mary Annie, much older brothers Charles Ernest and Charles James, occupation manager cinamatograph. 1881 William and Anne Mahoney Mitre St Lambeth, with William 16 Robert 14, Ernest 7 , Charles 6 (last two ages match Charles Ernest reg 1873 and Charles James reg 1875 mother for both Lamburn).  No reg for Herbert Sidney1890  , Alfred Hope 1885 has mother Lamburn. William Mahoney mar Mary Annie Lamburn 1872 St Saviours.  1891  William C fth, Mary A mth, The Charles's  and Christopher Fredrick 1877, Frank Arthur 1878 and confusingly Alfred A 1885 and Herbert S 1887- no birth reg for this Herbert!unless he is actually Herbert J in Greenwich or just plain Herbert in St Saviour 1888 except mothers name is Bessell- but no death reg for either of these! So Herbert may be older than the military record shows.

 

2nd Lt H. ? Henry? Stroud- ?29/11/16 gazetted flying officer. UPDATE- Cas Card RFC SR 4 sq 2nd Lt, 17/6/17, France RE8, wounded in back. (these following details are for H(C) Stroud - shown as a Captain so probably not the man in the photo] b 1894, NoK father H Stroud, Cresta North heaton Newcastle on Tyne. Captain Northumbrian Brigades RE TF. Killed during operations of night of 7/3/18. FO 22/9/16. 37, 76, 37 sq through 16-17, 61 sq from 7/17 until death 3/18.Unfit 10/16, 8/12/16, 2/17-5/17. UPDATE2- HC Stroud number 2- HAC number 6713, Harold Chas Stroud. Deceased. no widow, no children. Father George Stroud, Limehouse, Constituion Road , Luton, Chatham. Mother Mary Ann Stroud. Brother Ernest Clarke Stroud 35.Sister Mabel Mary Stroud 36, Gladys ?Dorcan? Stroud 20, Mrs ?Hinks? 137 Boundary Road Wood? Sgt HAC [effects]{UPDATE3- Henry- b 20/8/1888, NoK W?e?N Stroud wife, 23 Barley? Gdns Barley ?Wood? ilford Essex, Relinquish commission n grounds of ill health ?12/5/18 gtd rank Lt. service [TBA](start)  3/6/16 ; 7/6/17 struck off.Wounded France 17/6/17 . unfit from 12/2/17 through to 1918. UPDATE- found a henry Stroud in Ilford - birth reg and later census- not confirmed if this is him.

 

M.A. Jobson, Matron- ? Mary Amelia Red Cross?UPDATE- Possibility no1 -Red cross records - Address 22 Alma Road Plymouth, age 28 , service 1/11/17 to 1/3/18 [NB did she leave the RFC hospital or is this someone else?] rank at engagement TN [?Trainee nurse?] TN Depot. [suspect this is not our lady], Number 2- 1911 census- Mary Amelia Jobson b Forfar 1889, nursing at St Andrews Holborn Sick children's Hospital. [NB- the nurse in this picture may not be the Matron pictured in the Tatler picture- or she looks quite different when she smiles :-) - quite grim in Tatler shot]

 

Capt B. James ? Bert? UPDATE-[this is probably not him- enlisted man] no 44335 b 1890;Service start 9/2/16 age 26 3/12, d of w.Discharged para 392. casualty card destroyed 20/7/20. Died 10/9/23 St George's Hospital London Diabetes Mellitus Lung abcess coma. UPDATE2- Cas Card- Captain Bert James 3427, RFC SR 6375, 63 TS, 7/5/18 killed mid air colsion at height of 2000ft , home[along with 2nd Lt G Nash and 2nd LT JG ward]- however no note of any other injuries at earlier date.UPDATE3- Cas rep- crashed Morane 26/4/17 with Lt A Swales-both "OK", gazette Lt 1/7/17, gazette T/Capt and Flt Cmdr 25/8/17..."UPDATE4-http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Acc1918a.htm 63 TSTemple farm, Joyce Green

thanks to PRC- An obituary appearered in the edition of The Advertiser, (Adelaide, South Australia) dated 28th May 1918 and includes the following:-

 

Captain Bert James left South Australia on March 23rd 1916 for England, where he joined the Royal Flying Corps. He passed as a Flight Lieutenant on June 3rd 1916 and was sent to France, flying over the lines for twelve months. On July 17th 1917 he had a “come down” some thousands of feet and smashed his machine, but got off with a shaking. On July 19th he got another “come down”, landing in a shell hole, wrecking his machine, hurting his knee and receiving a shock. Then he was sent to England for a rest. While there he passed as a Captain. He was made instructor and while the commanding officer was on leave, Captain James was put in his place, being in charge of 50 officers and 300 men. He showed great skill in the short time he was in charge. Captain James, in writing home, in all his letters, expressed his great pleasure in his occupation. He thoroughly enjoyed his work.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5558235

 

UPDATE3- PRCs great work on Bert James is now confirmed with this from the EDT  https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/australian-who-died-in-ww1-remembered-at-north-norfolk-church-1-5498521

 

2nd Lt L.W.  St George- NZ- UPDATE b Greytown NZ, 1876 son of Mary Emily (Varnham) d 1933 aged 85 and leonard Shaw d 1920 aged 73 (several siblings). Dentist. Rtnd NZ with wife Josephine AE in 1920 as Lt RFC.1924 to US. D 1946 Falmouth, Cornwall. No 68250,no1 Off Batt. C/o H Dipple esq, Newberry Buckhurst Hill Essex. b New Zealand [note at top says 'from Australia" ] Dentist, widower. 1/9/16 central recruiting office London. Appt RFC South Farnborough 2/3/17. Father Leonard Shaw St George of Masterton. School of Military Aeronautics Oxford posted 21/12/16. [stamped] cadet wing RFC. Discharged having been selected for service as 2nd Lt with RFC 16/3/17. 1919 marriage Mrs Josephine labouchere Hillyer of Chelsea https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WAG19190623.2.7?query="l w st george"&start_date=01-01-1901&end_date=31-12-1922&snippet=true&type=ARTICLE,ILLUSTRATION,

entry into RFC

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/MT19160907.2.23?query="l w st george"&start_date=01-01-1901&end_date=31-12-1922&snippet=true&type=ARTICLE,ILLUSTRATION

gained wings https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19170410.2.14?query="l w st george"&start_date=01-01-1901&end_date=31-12-1922&snippet=true&type=ARTICLE,ILLUSTRATION commission as Lt https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/STEP19170514.2.39?query="l w st george"&start_date=01-01-1901&end_date=31-12-1922&snippet=true&type=ARTICLE,ILLUSTRATION

This chap is a bit elusive in terms of military records, airhistory spread sheet only show a Harold who died 1924, LW only gets listed in the RFC lists- no casualty cards reports etc that I have found- anyone else had more luck? UPDATE2 H. Dipple- there is an H Dipple b 1858 Stepney who is a licenced publican at Buckhurst Hill with wife Lily in 1901 but haven't found him in 1911.

 

Seated front row

 

2nd lt William James Pearson (my grandfather) b 1886 Hamilton NZ, 9/14 DoLOY D sq, 23/5/15 France, Cpl by 12/15, gazetted RFC 1/1/17, injured 10/2/17, discharged to RFC hosp 24/4/17, fit for duty 21/7/17- STILL SEEKING INFO ON POSSIBLE RFC ATTACHMENT FROM DUKE OF LANCASTER YEOMANRY PRIOR TO COMMISSION IN JAN 1917

 

2nd Lt A.H- Andrew Hinchcliffe- Lancaster, bc1895, 10/16 1/3 middlesex, seconded observer, 12/16 flying officer,22/4/17 10 Mdx , 23 RS,  cas card inj Aboukir, 30/4/17 att training. UPDATE- 46 Thurlow Park Rd Dulwich [previous address illegible], [no NoK given], 48a High Street SW15; 10 btn Middlesex. Service record- 15/4/16 67a sq appt FO;10/12/16 embrkd from Eygpt; 10/2/17 38 ? A; 25/10/17 EFI ASW; 13/11/17 5sq;19/4/18 injured; 8/4/18 hospital;15/4/18 invalided England [subsequent comprehensive details omitted]; Lt effective 1/4/18 retire ill health 1919; unfit 12/7/17 ABO;unfit 4/10/17 norwich ;fit line of communication 23/10/17 ABO;unfit 3/12/17 in the field france; 3/3/18 unfit in the field france. Injured 22 RS aboukki 19/4/17. UPDATE ? bc 1897 emigrate Quebec?n(shipping record) . UPDATE 2- this site has a biograpghy - he must have worked as a journalist- but its paid subscripton so I can;tpost details- if someone has a sub here is the link https://www.scoop-database.com/list/atoz_journalist/l

 

Capt C.H -Cecil Healey- Stocks bc 1896, or Charles Howe bc1890 or Charles House 2nd Scot rifles. UPDATE Charles Howe, father ?TC Howe Fergus Park , ?Kragie ?Lawl? Dundee, address fergus Bank Craigie Terrace Dundee. 2Lt 1/4/18, Capt- no date given- date as majorn?9/18? . Flying officer 6/17. Seems to g straight from 2lt to Capt but datesare all wrong for him to be a Captain in this picture! But was hospital from 10/8/17- makes no sense to me!

 

2nd Lt H.R.S- (Sir) Henry Ralph Stanley- Birkin- 7th Sherwood Foresters, 29/4/17 21RS abassia under training,3/7/17 to be flying officer. UPDATE-b26/7/1896 Mapperly Notts, father TS Birkin,resgnd 1919. Student Engineering Notts Uni. reading  Service -10/16,Eygpt1/17;[the word HOSPITAL is squeezed in between two lines here- no dates] ;A sq ?cfs? 2/18; 81 sq3/17 /Leampton? [hard to read] on appt as FO;[something]G pool 81 sq. [long list of service from 1918 to 19 not transcribed here]. gazette 4/8/17 effective 37/17 2nd Lt. Signed off unfit from 1/8/17 to 6/3/18

 

 

 

Edited 4 June , 2020 by Madmeg

[pierssc]

And the names are...?

 

EDIT: Ah, you've now added them

Edited 10 August , 2019 by pierssc

[Madmeg]

48 minutes ago, pierssc said:

And the names are...?

give us a break , I had to enter them up

[pierssc]

Sorry, but you didn't put the names in the original version of your first post, so you were just tantalising us!
 

Thank you for putting them up. Very very interesting indeed, for me at least.   

 

George Eric Gwynne Craig (Eric Craig) flew with my Grandfather as his observer fairly frequently in 5 Squadron between February and May 1917.  I have done quite a bit of research on him.  He was posted to Home establishment from 5 Squadron on 4th July 1917 and injured his back in August.  On 12 October 1917 he was admitted to "RFC Hosp Bryanston Sq", and discharged on 22 November - but it looks as if he was sent out to Hillington House without it appearing on his otherwise comprehensive Canadian Army record.   There's no mention of the date in Tatler or on the back of your photo is there?  It has to be within a few days of 12 October - and no later than publication on the 24th.

 

I am in touch with his family and I'll point them in the direction of this thread.

 

While we're about it let's just put a link back to your original thread on this to save time searching for it: 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/268975-how-strict-were-rules-for-convalescent-officers/

[PRC]

9 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Capt B. James ? Bert?

 

It may be a complete co-incidence but a Captain Bert James is buried in the churchyard at Beeston Regis, near Sheringham in Norfolk. He died in an aero accident on the 7th May 1918. His 1918 RAF record in summarising his career with the RFC has him with the Expeditionary Force No 3 Squadron from the 24th September 1916 until the 30th July 1917 and then Home Service. On the 27th August 1917 he was appointed to 62 Training Squadron as Flight Commander with the rank of Lieutenant \ Acting Captain.

 

What perhaps makes him a candidate is the medical boards shown.

2.8.17 Unfit G.S.  3 months H.S. 2 months C.d. 1 1/2 months

20. 9.17 Unfit G.S. 3 months H.S. 2 months C.D. 1 month

2.10.17 Unfit G.S. 4 months H.S. 3 months fit C.D. no flying - received 3 weeks leave.

28.11.17 Unfit G,S 1 month fit H.S., light flying

19.12.17 Fit G.S. after one month, high flying at home.

 

Potentially looks like it fits the right time frame. I'm assuming G.S. is General Service, H.S. is Home Service and C.d is Command duties.

 

Cheers

Peter

 

Here lies all that can die of Bert (Captain Bert James 3 Squadron RAF) by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

Edited 10 August , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[pierssc]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

 

 

Here lies all that can die of Bert (Captain Bert James 3 Squadron RAF) by Moominpappa06, on Flickr

 

I think they borrowed the "Here lies...." bit  from Lady Sale, of First Afghan War fame.... but why not?

 

http://www.theheritageportal.co.za/article/visiting-historic-primrose-cemetery-germiston

 

 

Edited 10 August , 2019 by pierssc

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Capt C.H -Cecil Healey- Stocks bc 1896, or Charles Howe bc1890 or Charles House 2nd Scot rifles

Charles Howe Stocks was Hospitalised c 10/8/17 and passed fit for duty (warm climate) 1/11/17.

6 26/8/1890 RAF Service file on FindmyPast here

 

[charlie962]

On 10/08/2019 at 09:02, Madmeg said:

2nd Lt H. ? Henry? Stroud- ?29/11/16 gazetted flying officer

Henry Stroud was wounded 17/6/17 and finally discharged unfit 1918.

Born 20/8/1888.  Service File FMP here

 

 

 

On 10/08/2019 at 09:02, Madmeg said:

published in the tatler on 24th October 1917

I am assuming we are looking for people sick in the month leading up to photo publication ?

 

Charlie

Edited 12 August , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Capt G Davies- no further info at this time

Gerald Davies  Unfit 11/9/17 until discharged unfit 1918

b orn 18/7/1888. Service file on FMP here

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, Madmeg said:

2nd Lt A.B Williams - ?Archibald Boniface Llewellyn Williams/Arthur Basil Williams/Arthur Benjamin Cotton Williams- unsure.

Archibald Boniface Llewellyn Williams.  Unfit 25/9/17 until early 1918.

born 11/4/1897 Svc File here on FMP

 

Charlie

PS I do look at the other possibilities for the names above but have picked the ones that fit the date of Sep/Oct 1917

[Errol Martyn]

St George was Leonard Warner St George.

 

There is an AIR79 and an AIR76 for him at TNA and FMP.

 

Errol

Edited 10 August , 2019 by Errol Martyn

[charlie962]

15 hours ago, Madmeg said:

2nd lt William James Pearson (my grandfather) b 1886 Hamilton NZ, 9/14 DoLOY D sq, 23/5/15 France, Cpl by 12/15, gazetted RFC 1/1/17, injured 10/2/17, discharged to RFC hosp 24/4/17, fit for duty 21/7/17

His Service file, (I'm pretty sure it is him) is here on Findmypast and differs a bit on dates ?

But here is a note of Medical boards 1917, which brings him in line with the others above, being Unfit 29/8/17 onwards:

 

 

[Madmeg]

12 hours ago, pierssc said:

Sorry, but you didn't put the names in the original version of your first post, so you were just tantalising us!
 

Thank you for putting them up. Very very interesting indeed, for me at least.   

 

George Eric Gwynne Craig (Eric Craig) flew with my Grandfather as his observer fairly frequently in 5 Squadron between February and May 1917.  I have done quite a bit of research on him.  He was posted to Home establishment from 5 Squadron on 4th July 1917 and injured his back in August.  On 12 October 1917 he was admitted to "RFC Hosp Bryanston Sq", and discharged on 22 November - but it looks as if he was sent out to Hillington House without it appearing on his otherwise comprehensive Canadian Army record.   There's no mention of the date in Tatler or on the back of your photo is there?  It has to be within a few days of 12 October - and no later than publication on the 24th.

 

I am in touch with his family and I'll point them in the direction of this thread.

 

While we're about it let's just put a link back to your original thread on this to save time searching for it: 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/268975-how-strict-were-rules-for-convalescent-officers/

 

The publication date was 24th October 1917- but the Tatler is a monthly publication isn;t it? 

Plus remember the photos would have had to be developed and printed etc etc. so could be some time after it was taken.

The date is challenging me- my GF was declared fit for service on 21/7/17- to my knowledge (I see someone has posted a file up above that I don;t currently have so will need to check it out) and was sent for training so not quite sure what he would be doing in "hospital" at Hillington. But I have not found medical files for some of the men above so maybe they were training- but then why the nurse?

[Madmeg]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Henry Stroud was wounded 17/6/17 and finally discharged unfit 1918.

Born 20/8/1888.  Service File FMP here

 

 

 

I am assuming we are looking for people sick in the month leading up to photo publication ?

 

Charlie

 

Hi Charlie,

Its supposed to be a convalescent Hospital so yes I would expect them to show up as sick sometime up until 24/11/17 when the photo was published- but see my comment above- I think the photo may have been several months earlier than October.

I speed loaded (only an hour's use of the library computer allowed and the family standing over me looking bored and tapping their feet :-D) a lot of files but haven;t had a chance to go through them all yet, will post deatils as I go through them all

[Madmeg]

7 hours ago, pierssc said:

 

I think they borrowed the "Here lies...." bit  from Lady Sale, of First Afghan War fame.... but why not?

 

http://www.theheritageportal.co.za/article/visiting-historic-primrose-cemetery-germiston

 

 

 

He's the chap sat next to the Matron- looks maybe a bit old for 22? although the Tatler picture he looks a bit younger

[Madmeg]

3 hours ago, Errol Martyn said:

St George was Leonard Warner St George.

 

There is an AIR79 and an AIR76 for him at TNA and FMP.

 

Errol

 

Yes I found him but he isn't on the airhistory spreadsheet (although there is another St george (a brother?) on there.Couldn;t remember his name when I added the above.

There is an enlistment form for him. I'll add the details as I work my way through.

[Madmeg]

4 hours ago, charlie962 said:

His Service file, (I'm pretty sure it is him) is here on Findmypast and differs a bit on dates ?

But here is a note of Medical boards 1917, which brings him in line with the others above, being Unfit 29/8/17 onwards:

 

 

 

I had missed this!

His medical record simply shows him as being discharged to RFC Hospital on 25/4/17. 

 

 

Records for my GF are a bit hard to find- all over the place and for some reason the military ones never seems to show up when you try a simple search! 

 

Birth NZ BMD.1885

1st marriage NSW c1907

Divorce 1921 Trove

2nd Marriage Melbourne,Victoria 1922

Electoral rolls Melbourne, 1920's

Death 1936 Cheshire, England

 

WW1 records

 

Army record prior to RFC- unknown.

 

Medal card appears as Sgt William James Pearson 3400 Duke of Lancasters Own Yeomanry.

Pearson, William James- AIR 76/396/92 I have previously downloaded and now can;t find on my computer- this is him but record only starts from 10/2/17 after he was injured (having received his commission on 1/1/17)- I'm looking at the TNA watermarked version at the moment so its very difficult to read- but 15/7/17 looks like Wireless and Obs sch ?AD ? wing, 25/11/17 Hgs AD wing RFC ?EP followed by (confusingly) 26/5/17; 26/3/18 RD Australia- that's easy he had six months leave to go home at that point. When he came back he got influenza and pneumonia and was sick again.

That page you posted is the last one on that record and I don't remember seeing it before - wonder if it has been added since I downloaded?

 

I have found his medical record in FMP where he appears as W. J. Pearson but can't find it on TNA. But I think I did fnd it previously for when he was in Napsbury with his pneumonia in late 1918.

I have the Cas card from the RFC museum pages for his injury in 2/1917

I have the Gazette posting of his promotion.

I have various shipping records - to England 1913, from England 1918.

I have the War diaries for DLoY D squadron which has a nominal list on which he appears as a corporal December 1915.

 

Then there is 2nd Lt William James general List WO 339/85124 which is not available online so I am only guessing it is him- hoping it will come online sometime so I can check it out.

 

 

 

Edited 11 August , 2019 by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

16 hours ago, pierssc said:

 

 

George Eric Gwynne Craig (Eric Craig) flew with my Grandfather as his observer fairly frequently in 5 Squadron between February and May 1917.  I have done quite a bit of research on him.  He was posted to Home establishment from 5 Squadron on 4th July 1917 and injured his back in August.  On 12 October 1917 he was admitted to "RFC Hosp Bryanston Sq", and discharged on 22 November - but it looks as if he was sent out to Hillington House without it appearing on his otherwise comprehensive Canadian Army record.   There's no mention of the date in Tatler or on the back of your photo is there?  It has to be within a few days of 12 October - and no later than publication on the 24th.

 

 

Just wondering re dates- I note that he was unfit to fly from the 17/7/17 and there's an injry noted in August of 1918- but nothing for October as such- he is just still unfit to fly- man these records are hard to decifer eh?

[pierssc]

Hi Meg

 

Re Craig.

 

I think you may be getting swamped with dates.

 

The Tatler IS a monthly publication, but I think at this time it WAS a weekly one.

 

The July (not August) 1918 injury is quite different and arose from a collision while pilot training at Grantham so we must ignore that.

 

Yes, the records are tricky to work out.  Remember that there are often two dates - the date of the incident, and the date it was recorded or authorised.  By 17/7/17, are you referring to the second scanned page on his AIR 76?  This actually says 17/7/18 (as the date of the record) and refers to the crash on 2/7/18 at Grantham, not his 1917 injury.

 

The Canadian file is more detailed but also bitty re his 1917 injury.  One card says "RFC 37 Bryanston Sq W 12-10-17 Cont back (Can Cont)"

under that "Disch 22/11/17 ditto"

 

There is another card relating to the October 1917 admission with space to record transfers to other hospitals, but none are shown.

 

P.39 of the pdf has his medical history.  The handwriting is appalling but it seems to include "Injury to back Aug 1917 treatment 5 months - returned to duty."  The month isn't clear.  It might have started as Aug and been corrected to July

 

From the AIR 76 file we learn that on 15.12.17 he had a Medical Board and found "unfit GS 1 month fit HS recd 3 wks [indistinct]"

then on 8.1.18 another Medical Board "unfit GS 1 month fit HS no flying.  Re examined by RFC Commissions Board and found still unfit for pilot."  Finally on 22.2.18 "Fit GS after 1 month.  High flying at home."

 

AIR 76 also records his going to the School of Technical Training on 17/1/17 (I submit this is a clerical error for 1918) till fit to fly.  He went from the SoTT to 1 School of Aeronautics on 13.4.18

 

One might wish all this was clearer but this seems to be the sequence.

 

He was in France until 4th July 1917, when he went home.

 

He injured his back by some form of bruising in July or August 1917 and received treatment for it for 5 months ie till Nov or Dec 1917.  This does not seem to have required admission to hospital until 12 October when he was admitted to Bryanston Square.  As far as the records are concerned he stayed there until discharge on 22 November.  On 15 December he was Boarded and was found to be basically better though not fully recovered.  Some time before the printing date for the 24 October Tatler he went to Norfolk and was photographed at Hillington Hall.  I would suggest that with a weekly publication the gap between printing and publication might only have been a few days.  He is described as a convalescent officer there which suggests he is a patient, not a visitor, though they may have that wrong - the level of detail though (down to the dog's name)  suggests they took trouble to get the facts right.

 

 

[Madmeg]

The dates I have put in are from the second column of the servuce record- ir he apparent actual date not the one when it was notified. I've just written the down fairly fast so I haven't tried to digest them too much. 

Re Eric Gwynne there is the injury noted for 2/7/18 but there is also noted in the first column for 17/1/17 to school TT until fit to fly- little unclear when that was?

 

[charlie962]

re William James Pearson, your GF:

 

This RAF CasualtyForm has useful info on the dates of transfer from Sgt into the RFC and his subsequent wounding. Again do be careful to pick the event date rather than the reported date !  His actual wounding date with 8 Sqn RFC was 14/2/17 according to this sheet. This Form does tie up with the 4 page Service Record that I linked above in post 12.

 

For the Tatler photo I'm quite sure we are looking at a picture taken Sep/Oct 1917

 

Charlie

 

 

[PRC]

On 10/08/2019 at 08:02, Madmeg said:

UPDATE2- Cas Card- Captain Bert James 3427, RFC SR 6375, 63 TS, 7/5/18 killed mid air colsion at height of 2000ft , home[along with 2nd Lt G Nash and 2nd LT JG ward]- however no note of any other injuries at earlier date.

 

An obituary appearered in the edition of The Advertiser, (Adelaide, South Australia) dated 28th May 1918 and includes the following:-

 

Captain Bert James left South Australia on March 23rd 1916 for England, where he joined the Royal Flying Corps. He passed as a Flight Lieutenant on June 3rd 1916 and was sent to France, flying over the lines for twelve months. On July 17th 1917 he had a “come down” some thousands of feet and smashed his machine, but got off with a shaking. On July 19th he got another “come down”, landing in a shell hole, wrecking his machine, hurting his knee and receiving a shock. Then he was sent to England for a rest. While there he passed as a Captain. He was made instructor and while the commanding officer was on leave, Captain James was put in his place, being in charge of 50 officers and 300 men. He showed great skill in the short time he was in charge. Captain James, in writing home, in all his letters, expressed his great pleasure in his occupation. He thoroughly enjoyed his work.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5558235

 

This ties in with the medical boards he attended in the UK for the remaining months of 1917 - he arrives back in the UK on the 30th July and has his first board on the 2nd August.

 

If it is him then certainly the very earliest date the picture could have been taken is the 30th July 1917 and note he was granted three weeks leave after attending a medical board on the 2nd October which would also narrow down the date the picture could have been taken.

 

On 10/08/2019 at 08:02, Madmeg said:

(Sir) Henry Ralph Stanley- Birkin

 

May be a co-incidence but I thought that was the proper name of "Tim" Birkin, one of the Bentley Boys of Le Mans fame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Birkin

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 11 August , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[pierssc]

5 hours ago, Madmeg said:

The dates I have put in are from the second column of the servuce record- ir he apparent actual date not the one when it was notified. I've just written the down fairly fast so I haven't tried to digest them too much. 

Re Eric Gwynne there is the injury noted for 2/7/18 but there is also noted in the first column for 17/1/17 to school TT until fit to fly- little unclear when that was?

 

 

Dear Meg

 

Re Craig

 

Well as I said in my last post, I think the reference to 17/1/17 is a clerical error and the year should read 1918.   They sent him to the School of Technical Training once he got a bit better from his July/Aug back injury and he went from there to 1 SMA in April 1918 to start ground school for pilot training.  

 

This has to be the case because he had been in France/Flanders with the 3rd Battalion Canadian Pioneers since 18 July 1916 until on 3rd January 1917 he had been attached to the RFC.  Within a day or two or a few days at most of that he was with 5 Squadron as an observer on probation.  On 29th January my grandfather and he flew together for the first time and (other when one of them was on leave) they continued to fly together on a number of occasions until May.  So there is just no way Craig was at the School of Technical Training from January 1917 until April 1918.  I have the advantage of having been through his Canadian record and my grandfather's log books and such 5 squadron records as there are for this period as well as the AIR 76.

 

As I said the first proper column of the third page of his AIR 76 file is the date of the record, or the orders - it is headed "Outgoing authority", and this is where the reference to 17.1.17 is.  The Fourth column is the "date of effect" (ie when it happened") and as so often is blank in this case.  It is his first recorded posting after he came back from France in July 1917.

 

Reading it as 17 January 1918  all makes sense - he injures his back in July 1917, he gets treatment, he gets better, they send him to ground school (whether as pupil or instructor isn't clear) when he his well enough to do something useful and in due course he starts the pilot training that results in a crash in July 1918.  This ties in with such information as there is on p.1 of his AIR76 file which starts with him at S of TT (as he was on 1st April 1918 when the RAF came into being.  

 

In my experience AIR 76s can have huge gaps (as in this case) and need to be read in conjunction with an officer's Army file if available - in the case of a British RFC officer this is his WO339 file which may contain his medical record.  They need to be treated with caution and one must remember that they are RAF files and don't necessarily go into too much detail about things that happened before 1.4.18.   

 

Another observer I'm researching got muddled up with at least one officer of the same surname and their files generally are so hopelessly tangled that it is almost impossible to be sure who was doing what at a particular point.

Edited 11 August , 2019 by pierssc

[Madmeg]

Charlie,

Thanks for the casulaty form- the dates for his commission and his injury vary slightly between the forms available- I generally give 1/1/17 as commission as that is the earliest possible- but as you can see it is 2/1/17 shown here. The injury shows up differently as well- on or about the 14/2/17 is as good as I can get it at the moment.

Unfortunately that form doesnlt show when he was discharged from what I can see- the October date is the reporting date for his seniority - difficult to make out.

 

PRC

Thanks for Bert James- that is useful and I think confirms him- I hadnt found that- there is still the slightly knotty question of whether there is another Bert James mixed up in the records to sort out.

Yes HRS Birkin is "Tim" (why Tim?) ancestry had photos of him in driving gear post war but I was i  a rush and didnt check them out. there is also his Pilots licence with some nice pictures- except ancestry has only downloaded the plain card  so 'll have to have another try..He had an extensive flying history once he was declared fit again but I haven't included it in the details above. He also was quite the socialite with lots of mentions in "people in the news" (again ancestry). I suspect he might have been the Tatler's raison d'etre for this photo :-) . Skinny to the point to emaciation though isn;t he (Tatler photo especially)- he has attracted my eye from the start because his pose in the pictures is so much more relaxed than the others- and his cap badge is quite visible- except I thought it was a Wilts badge and had been trying to id him based on that.

 

Piers

Sorry getting a bit lost in all those dates- may have to spreadsheet them.

Could it be another Craig? the initials given in the Tatler are G.E- and I have picked on GEG from the airhistory spread sheet as the only candidate anywhere near matching- if there as a plain GE out there then it could be him instead. That said I note that the two apparent "colonials" have lighter coloured uniforms than anyone else.

 

 

Also note KA Creery- "absentee 15/10/17" - though I haven;t been able to work out how long for- or whether that is the starting date or finishing date for his absence

Edited 11 August , 2019 by Madmeg

[pierssc]

Hi Meg

 

It's the right Craig - he appears as GE and GEG in various records.  I think he may not have cared for the "Gwynne".  I also have another photo from the family so have something to compare it with -  but I don't have permission to post it here.  It's the right Craig.