Wounded in Flanders

[Richard Wildwood]

i wondered if anyone can help

I'm trying to track my grandfathers war service and have some questions i'm having difficulty answering. I know his medal card shows Pte William Guy, Northumberland Fusiliers. i also know he was wounded in the shoulder by a machine gun bullet in Flanders and discharged as unfit for service on 12 Dec 1917. The story he told was that his unit attacked, he got forward and found he was alone and was hit as he made his way back to the trenches. i have copies of his medal card which show him in 2 units, first as Pte 29349 Northumberland Fusiliers and then Pte 23816 West Riding Reg (Duke of Wellingtons ?). this is also shown on the the medal rolls and awards sheet this time 8. N.Fusiliers (presumably 8th service batallion) which i believe was part of the 34th Brigade, 11th Northern Division. And the 2 West Riding Regiment which i'm assuming is the 2nd battalion which was part of the 12th Brigade, 4th Division. I'e found information in Long Long Trail really useful and now think he joined Kitchener's army and probably served on the Somme and Passchendaele before being wounded but i still have some questions.

 

1. Why 2 separate regiments and when did he move from one to another

2. where was he wounded (i've assumed Passchendaele but have no proof)

3. Why can't i find his military pension records, i know he had a pension as he was wounded in action

 

any help or filler information would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[kenf48]

41 minutes ago, Richard Wildwood said:

1. Why 2 separate regiments and when did he move from one to another

2. where was he wounded (i've assumed Passchendaele but have no proof)

3. Why can't i find his military pension records, i know he had a pension as he was wounded in action

 

Two or even more regiments was not unusual.  Men arriving at the Infantry Base Depot in France often found themselves transferred or were transferred after a period in the UK following a period there, usually for treatment for a wound or illness.  When joining a new regiment they were renumbered to that regiment.  The Rolls show the first regiment he was serving in when he entered a theatre of war, and to which his medals were named and his last regiment whose record office had the address where they were to be sent.

 

In this instance we can see from near number sampling he joined the 15 Northumberland Fusiliers on or around 16th June 1916 (he may well have been a Derby Scheme attestation).  On completion of his training he was posted to the 3rd Battalion NF to await a posting to an active service battalion.  On the 12th September a draft destined for the 8th Battalion NF was posted to the BEF, embarking from Folkestone to Boulogne.  They arrived at  31 IBD (Etaples) the following day.  Men from this draft (as evidenced by the Roll) were posted as a group to the 2nd Bn West Riding Regt. on the 19th September.

 

2. Sorry can't help, you need to look at the casualty lists which are available on FMP.

 

3. Recently the WFA entered an arrangement with Ancestry for cards detailing pension details to be held by Ancestry who have put them behind a paywall on Fold 3 however if you are a member of the WFA you can access them for free or Ancestry offer a 7 day free trial to existing subscribers.

The so called 'pension records' available on Ancestry and FMP are far from complete.

 

Ken 

 

[Richard Wildwood]

2 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

Two or even more regiments was not unusual.  Men arriving at the Infantry Base Depot in France often found themselves transferred or were transferred after a period in the UK following a period there, usually for treatment for a wound or illness.  When joining a new regiment they were renumbered to that regiment.  The Rolls show the first regiment he was serving in when he entered a theatre of war, and to which his medals were named and his last regiment whose record office had the address where they were to be sent.

 

In this instance we can see from near number sampling he joined the 15 Northumberland Fusiliers on or around 16th June 1916 (he may well have been a Derby Scheme attestation).  On completion of his training he was posted to the 3rd Battalion NF to await a posting to an active service battalion.  On the 12th September a draft destined for the 8th Battalion NF was posted to the BEF, embarking from Folkestone to Boulogne.  They arrived at  31 IBD (Etaples) the following day.  Men from this draft (as evidenced by the Roll) were posted as a group to the 2nd Bn West Riding Regt. on the 19th September.

 

2. Sorry can't help, you need to look at the casualty lists which are available on FMP.

 

3. Recently the WFA entered an arrangement with Ancestry for cards detailing pension details to be held by Ancestry who have put them behind a paywall on Fold 3 however if you are a member of the WFA you can access them for free or Ancestry offer a 7 day free trial to existing subscribers.

The so called 'pension records' available on Ancestry and FMP are far from complete.

 

Ken 

 

Thanks Ken, that's really helpful, amazing how much detail there is on the cards if you know what to look for.

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Sorry can't help, you need to look at the casualty lists which are available on FMP.

 

The weekly casualty lists are also available on the British Newspapers Archive website, (searchable but its only as good as the optical character software used) or by going through weekly pdfs on the National Library of Scotland website.

 

If you are resident in the UK your local library service will normally offer free unlimted access to the British Newspaper Archive, rather than having to subscribe. That will also give you a chance to look for local newspaper reports relating to his time in the Army - woundings, leaves, letters home, hospital admissions, discharge, etc.

 

The National Library of Scotland webpage can be seen here: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

 

FindMyPast also has a significant number of admission and discharge books for medical units along the medical evacuation chain, so could be worth a check to see if you can spot him there going through and back to the UK.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Richard Wildwood]

10 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

The weekly casualty lists are also available on the British Newspapers Archive website, (searchable but its only as good as the optical character software used) or by going through weekly pdfs on the National Library of Scotland website.

 

If you are resident in the UK your local library service will normally offer free unlimted access to the British Newspaper Archive, rather than having to subscribe. That will also give you a chance to look for local newspaper reports relating to his time in the Army - woundings, leaves, letters home, hospital admissions, discharge, etc.

 

The National Library of Scotland webpage can be seen here: https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/144481815

 

FindMyPast also has a significant number of admission and discharge books for medical units along the medical evacuation chain, so could be worth a check to see if you can spot him there going through and back to the UK.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks Peter

[clk]

Hi Richard,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Sorry can't help, you need to look at the casualty lists which are available on FMP.

 

As an alternative, the Casualty Lists for 1917 - 1919 are now also available online at the National Library of Scotland - link. If you can find William on one, it will be dated several weeks after his actual date of wounding. The trick is to try to find service records for men from the same regiment who are also shown. Hopefully they would give a date of wounding, from which you can make a reasonable inference about him, and then cross reference to the unit war diary.

 

Regards

Chris

[Richard Wildwood]

1 minute ago, clk said:

Hi Richard,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

 

As an alternative, the Casualty Lists for 1917 - 1919 are now also available online at the National Library of Scotland - link. If you can find William on one, it will be dated several weeks after his actual date of wounding. The trick is to try to find service records for men from the same regiment who are also shown. Hopefully they would give a date of wounding, from which you can make a reasonable inference about him, and then cross reference to the unit war diary.

 

Regards

Chris

Thanks Chris, i'll have a look

[clk]

Hi Richard,

 

It's possible that the casualty list was published a day or so before 20th January 1917, when a local paper picked up on it.

 

 

The image above is from Findmypast. Unfortunately my level of sub doesn't give me access to their newspaper records.

 

Regards

Chris

[kenf48]

The War Diary for the 2nd Bn Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment for this period is on Ancestry here

or can be downloaded from TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=1&_ep=WO+95/1508&_dss=range&_ro=any&_hb=tna

 

Unfortunately no mention of a draft, what is interesting is that on 13th September they were in billets at Poperhinge but on the 16th the Division was sent to the Somme and the 2nd Bn went into billets at Bertangles.  It may have been this impending move that prompted the transfer mentioned above. Given the date unearthed by Chris I'd suggest he was one of the few casualties from their period in the trenches in mid December, other ranks are seldom mentioned by name. The Battalion was in billets in January and for most of November.

 

Ken

[Richard Wildwood]

  Thanks for your help Chris. It's certainly him and he was from Seaton Deleval. It was a bad wound so i'm guessing it took 12 months before his discharge unless he was wounded more than once.

[Richard Wildwood]

Thanks Ken. Diary says 21st Sep new drafts arrived 130 men 100 of the men were originally from 8th Batt Northumberland Fusiliers.Looks like an accurate date for my grandfathers transfer to a new regiment. Thanks for the help.

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Richard Wildwood said:

Thanks Ken. Diary says 21st Sep new drafts arrived 130 men 100 of the men were originally from 8th Batt Northumberland Fusiliers.Looks like an accurate date for my grandfathers transfer to a new regiment. Thanks for the help.

 

Good spot, I missed it.

 

Ken