P1907 bayonet with rounded tip?

[HistoryHouseCat]

Hello everyone! I am new in posting here on the forum, even though I've used GWF for research in the past. A couple of months ago I purchased this P1907 from Simpson Ltd. in the US for a reasonable price and have a few of questions. It is a Wilkinson produced example made in November of 1917, though the markings are quite worn. I do not see any re-issue dates, but it shows signs of refurbishment at some point, possibly around WWII. It has a Canadian property stamp (Pre-WWII style) and also a rounded tip. So my question is: since this has a rounded tip, was it a drill practice bayonet later in life? The blade is sharpened (possibly had seen service at the front originally?) but the tip is very blunt. It does not look like an amateur job, but like it was done in an armory. Also there is a upper case R stamped in the grip. Has anyone seen or heard about round-tipped drill bayonets? Thank you so much in advance, I know this community is a treasure-trove of information and bright individuals!

 

 

Edited 7 August , 2019 by HistoryHouseCat

[JMB1943]

Mr. Cat,

 

Welcome to the club of all things Pattern 1907!

Yes, the rounded tip is the telltale sign of a practice bayonet.

R stamped on the grip is very unusual; any change of status (such as sold out of service or Canadian ownership  or Naval issue) is ALWAYS put on as a permanent stamp on the metal. 

Bayonets were not sharpened for active service, since they are a stabbing weapon, not a cutting one; however, may have been done by a civilian owner.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[HistoryHouseCat]

JMB,

 My apologies for the long delay in response, as I haven't been logged in for weeks. Thank you for confirming my suspicion that it probably had been used for DP. Were bayonets that had a broken tip (opening Bully Beef, etc.) refurbished into DP bayonets or were they typically delivered that way from the manufacturer? Thank you once again!

 

Yours,

HHC

[Dave66]

I have a drill practice 1907, numerous inspection stamps and then ended up being converted to D.P. And used at the depot of the Worcester’s....pictures below for comparison, but note the official D.P. stamped on the pommel.

 

Dave.

[JMB1943]

As far as I am aware, DP Bayonets were not manufactured as such, but were converted from the regular issue that were judged defective after some period of use and resultant damage. Official instructions were that any bayonet that failed the bend test was to have 1/2 inch broken off at the tip. However, there is no mention of subsequent rework into a DP bayonet.

Given that the blade-length spec was 432 mm, I would be interested to learn the blade-lengths of these two examples.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[Dave66]

4 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

As far as I am aware, DP Bayonets were not manufactured as such, but were converted from the regular issue that were judged defective after some period of use and resultant damage. Official instructions were that any bayonet that failed the bend test was to have 1/2 inch broken off at the tip. However, there is no mention of subsequent rework into a DP bayonet.

Given that the blade-length spec was 432 mm, I would be interested to learn the blade-lengths of these two examples.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

417mm total length (a fraction under 16.5 inches for mine), last inspection stamp is 38 so presume converted during ww2 as the pig sticker was more widely issued front line but still the need to train new troops with older weapons.

Mr Cat’s does appear to be cruder and shorter than all the ones I’ve seen though....a Canadian thing?

 

 

Edited 8 September , 2019 by Dave66

[JMB1943]

Dave,

 

Thanks for that measurement.

Your DP has lost 15 mm, but has been considerably reworked to follow the original profile. Then plated to become a parade bayonet, so must have been in good condition otherwise.

Perhaps too much time at a Home Garrison and opening one paint can too many......

Your comment about the rounding on Mr. Cat’s example surprised me. I have only seen that one, and it looked quite neat to me but again, that is the only one that I’ve seen.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Dave66]

1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

Dave,

 

Thanks for that measurement.

Your DP has lost 15 mm, but has been considerably reworked to follow the original profile. Then plated to become a parade bayonet, so must have been in good condition otherwise.

Perhaps too much time at a Home Garrison and opening one paint can too many......

Your comment about the rounding on Mr. Cat’s example surprised me. I have only seen that one, and it looked quite neat to me but again, that is the only one that I’ve seen.

 

Regards,

JMB

There are a few here for comparison JMB, but they all seem to be reworked to the same standard as mine.

http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/viewphoto.php?shoph=16687&phqu=10

 

 

All the best,

 

Dave.

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Dave66
Link added.

[JMB1943]

Dave,

 

We have ways of making you include the link!!......

 

Regards,

JMB

[Dave66]

1 hour ago, JMB1943 said:

Dave,

 

We have ways of making you include the link!!......

 

Regards,

JMB

😩...my memories getting terrible, link added.

 

Dave.

 

Edet...drill purpose in the search box brings up another half dozen or so.

Edited 9 September , 2019 by Dave66

[JMB1943]

Dave,

 

Thank you, sir

 

Regards,

JMB

[HistoryHouseCat]

Sorry for the late reply once again! Thank you both for sharing about the length of 1907s DP examples. I got around to measuring mine, and as Dave said, it is shorter than both the regulation specs and his. The blade is 387mm (15.25in) with a total length of 508mm (20in). JMB, Is the R stamped in the grip a sold out of service mark or something different?

 

 

Many thanks,

HHCat

 

[JMB1943]

Hello Mr. Cat,

 

The sold-out-of-service stamp consists of two broad arrows joined at the point, so that it looks like a large X with a horizontal line through the center.

I would guess that R on the grip possibly indicates refurbished, although it would normally have been stamped on the blade, like the s.o.s mark would be.

 

Regards,

JMB

[sgt-maj]

Ayup chaps. Just to add to what has already been mentioned about the use of 'DP' bayonets, and the rounding off of the blade tip for use a bayonet practice training aid. looking at the tipoff the original post item. It is my suspicion that it has been that it has been altered quite recently. My reason for that comment is that if it were altered over 70 years ago (WW2), there would a constant overall patina with the rest of the blade In this case the lack of such patina is obvious. Also, the workmanship is not that of an official alteration, and I have seen many such items over my decades of collection. 

 

Here are two examples from my own collection, with a comparison 'in service' 07 with full point. As can be seen, and has been mentioned previously, there is not a great amount of metal removed from an official alteration.

 

[Monty12]

Bayonets were sharpened, why peeps keep saying they are not is incorrect.

 

L o C §15001 16th March 1910. Sword-bayonet, pattern 1907, Mk I. C. Sharpening before troops proceed on active service.
 The edge of sword-bayonets of the above mentioned pattern will be sharpened before troops proceed on active service,
 in accordance with the instructions given in §9206.
The sharpening will be restricted to that portion of the blade which has already been reduced to .01 inch thick.
 For Naval Service,
 the sharpening for active service will be carried out in accordance with instructions issued by the Admiralty.

List of Changes §2367 -Sword-bayonets, pattern 1907- 28th Aug. 1920. Blades to be kept sharpened.
 In future, blades of sword-bayonets of the above-mentioned pattern will be maintained in a sharpened condition by armourers.
 The sharpening of the edge will be performed with a smooth file,
 or by grinding, and will commence at 2" from the cross-piece and continue to the point,
 the existing angle of edge being maintained. No steps will be taken to sharpen blades of sword-bayonets in store,
 the armourers of units to which sword-bayonets may be issued being required to carry out the sharpening,
 but in the case of units without an attached armourer,
 the R.A.O.C. will arrange for the sharpening before issue is made.

[Banzai]

On 07/08/2019 at 22:47, JMB1943 said:

Mr. Cat,

 

Welcome to the club of all things Pattern 1907!

Yes, the rounded tip is the telltale sign of a practice bayonet.

R stamped on the grip is very unusual; any change of status (such as sold out of service or Canadian ownership  or Naval issue) is ALWAYS put on as a permanent stamp on the metal. 

Bayonets were not sharpened for active service, since they are a stabbing weapon, not a cutting one; however, may have been done by a civilian owner.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

I have to correct you on this, as they most certainly were, at the field level.

 

I have photos of soldiers sharpening their bayonets together, this was done by all armies. Just because a bayonet it sharpened does not mean it was done by bubba.

 

On 07/02/2020 at 05:43, Monty12 said:

Bayonets were sharpened, why peeps keep saying they are not is incorrect.

 

L o C §15001 16th March 1910. Sword-bayonet, pattern 1907, Mk I. C. Sharpening before troops proceed on active service.
 The edge of sword-bayonets of the above mentioned pattern will be sharpened before troops proceed on active service,
 in accordance with the instructions given in §9206.
The sharpening will be restricted to that portion of the blade which has already been reduced to .01 inch thick.
 For Naval Service,
 the sharpening for active service will be carried out in accordance with instructions issued by the Admiralty.

List of Changes §2367 -Sword-bayonets, pattern 1907- 28th Aug. 1920. Blades to be kept sharpened.
 In future, blades of sword-bayonets of the above-mentioned pattern will be maintained in a sharpened condition by armourers.
 The sharpening of the edge will be performed with a smooth file,
 or by grinding, and will commence at 2" from the cross-piece and continue to the point,
 the existing angle of edge being maintained. No steps will be taken to sharpen blades of sword-bayonets in store,
 the armourers of units to which sword-bayonets may be issued being required to carry out the sharpening,
 but in the case of units without an attached armourer,
 the R.A.O.C. will arrange for the sharpening before issue is made.

 

Yes! This is what I was looking for, perfect.

 

Not sure why everyone thinks they were not sharpened.

Edited 11 February , 2020 by Banzai

[JMB1943]

Banzai,

 

I made my original "no sharpening" comment based on two observations,

1) of my 15 or so P.'07's, all dated 1910-18, none is sharp enough to cut my fingertips with reasonable pressure, and would be hard-pressed to slice a loaf of bread!!

Now, either not a single one of my P.07's saw active service or they have been sharpened somewhat from an even more blunt condition.

2) I have the War diary of an infantry regiment that went to France with the original BEF in August, 1914. this WD mentions that officers' swords were turned in for sharpening, however there is absolutely no mention of sharpening the bayonets.

 

That said, I was not aware of these two LoC's, so thanks for sharing the information!.

Can you post the text of LoC 9206 that describes the sharpening procedure?

 

Regards,

JMB

[trajan]

The sharpening referred to in L o C §15001 16th March 1910 concerns the tip only, doesn't it? "The sharpening will be restricted to that portion of the blade which has already been reduced to .01 inch thick."

 

The List of Changes §2367 -Sword-bayonets, pattern 1907- 28th Aug. 1920. is a different matter...

 

I have never understood the logic behind sharpening the edge of a bayonet - they are primarily thrusting / prodding weapons, and so the point only needs sharpening. There again, vague memories of bayonet drill do include a 'butt-then-slash' movement.

 

Trajan

[Monty12]

On 11/02/2020 at 18:37, JMB1943 said:

Banzai,

 

I made my original "no sharpening" comment based on two observations,

1) of my 15 or so P.'07's, all dated 1910-18, none is sharp enough to cut my fingertips with reasonable pressure, and would be hard-pressed to slice a loaf of bread!!

Now, either not a single one of my P.07's saw active service or they have been sharpened somewhat from an even more blunt condition.

2) I have the War diary of an infantry regiment that went to France with the original BEF in August, 1914. this WD mentions that officers' swords were turned in for sharpening, however there is absolutely no mention of sharpening the bayonets.

 

That said, I was not aware of these two LoC's, so thanks for sharing the information!.

Can you post the text of LoC 9206 that describes the sharpening procedure?

 

Regards,

JMB

from an officers diary before going to france, "Orders were issued that all bayonets and Officers swords were to be handed into the Armourers shop to be sharpened.
 I had always looked upon my sword as an ornamental weapon which lent a certain amount of style and dignity to parades,
 and indeed had practiced assiduously in saluting with it, after being told by my Company Commander, on one occasion, that it was not an umbrella I was carrying."

[Monty12]

Hi Banzai,

I dont have the full details of LOC just what my friend Martin Jan Brayley passed onto me, we run a few other groups elsewhere and this thing about bayonets not being sharpened crops up alot so we have that for reference.

[DisasterDog]

Just adding to this thread with one of my own, chromed & in rather poor shape:

 

[trajan]

And nicely marked 'DP' for 'Drill purposes'!

[navydoc16]

On 12/02/2020 at 05:37, JMB1943 said:

Banzai,

 

I made my original "no sharpening" comment based on two observations,

1) of my 15 or so P.'07's, all dated 1910-18, none is sharp enough to cut my fingertips with reasonable pressure, and would be hard-pressed to slice a loaf of bread!!

Now, either not a single one of my P.07's saw active service or they have been sharpened somewhat from an even more blunt condition.

2) I have the War diary of an infantry regiment that went to France with the original BEF in August, 1914. this WD mentions that officers' swords were turned in for sharpening, however there is absolutely no mention of sharpening the bayonets.

 

That said, I was not aware of these two LoC's, so thanks for sharing the information!.

Can you post the text of LoC 9206 that describes the sharpening procedure?

 

Regards,

JMB

There is a lot of evidence of 1907s getting sharpened in Australia and NG heading for the pacific, including the double edge modification 

 

Kind regards

g

[JMB1943]

27 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

There is a lot of evidence of 1907s getting sharpened in Australia and NG heading for the pacific, including the double edge modification 

 

Kind regards

g

Navydoc,

……heading for the Pacific [during WW2]…….

Regards,

JMB

[navydoc16]

2 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Navydoc,

……heading for the Pacific [during WW2]…….

Regards,

JMB

Quite right, I lost my train of thought - 

I have read very heard and read very little on sharpening during WW1 except in the reference to repair of blades damaged. Apologies. 
 

but I do have in my collection one WW1 dated Lithgow which was sharpened before it was officially refurbished during WW2. If of course carries with it no proof except its own existence, and I have no provenance so I am not sure what to make of it. Sharpened very lightly, and would not break the skin at all 

 

I can dig it out if it is of interest.
 

kind regards

g 

Edited 6 April by navydoc16