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Lawlessx

*HELP* Jack ernest moore - 1st lieutenant machine gun Corps

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HolymoleyRE
45 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

Here's a bit from the British Newspaper Archive about Mr Lyndhurst.

Screenshot_20190812-151436.jpg

He seems quite the engima himself, YoB varies between 1882 & 1889, a 1911 Census record gives place of birth as Eagle, Lincolnshire.... But nothing else on him before that... A stage name...??? 

 

Edit - whilst not wanting to go too off piste in this Agatha Christie whodunit. 

 

69 Southwold Mansions is next door to where J E Moore was resident in 1916.

 

Queenie N Lyndhurst-Bush's death registered in 1930, but for the life of me cannot find a birth registration.... 😵

36 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

I have added the Service file for Lieutenant George Stephen Wind KOYLI to my Researcher's to do list. Will report back when it arrives...

 

Well done David 

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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sadbrewer
6 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Murkier still IPT. 

 

I think we need to perhaps hold on the John Ernest Moore, connection.  

 

And maybe look at this man Hugh Launcelot Lyndhurst as our connection to George Stephen Wind and Jack (E) Moore of the film industry. 

 

George S Wind's SWB contact address was 46 Southwold Mansions, living in 46 Southwold Mansions in 1920 is Hugh (Launcelot) Lyndhurst an Actor and an Army Deserter in 1916.  Hugh marries Wilhelmina Priscilla Bush, they divorce in 1933 naming Edward Piggott Driver, whom she marries, but later kills herself in 1935....3 and half years later Edward H P Driver a film actor kills himself.... Andy 

Hugh Lancelot Lyndhurst was actually Hugh Lancelot Bush, born 1885 Small Heath,Birmingham.

In 1912 he marries Iris May Court Cannell, they divorce in 1917.

6 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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helpjpl
2 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

Hi JP

   I did factor that in putting it forward, I have some very unusual names in my own tree, Jewsbury...Endsor...Lings and Gershom, and in the case of the first three I can trace virtually everyone back to the same roots.

    On the face of it Ommanney seems to be at least as rare, at a guess it's probably in the tiniest of fractions of one per cent of the population, and as such is highly unlikely to crop up twice in the same investigation unless there is a link.

   Having said all that, I agree it could be unrelated although the balance of probability might suggest otherwise.

 

 

Wife of solicitor John Ernest Moore:

I'd checked out Julia Cranstown Ommanney's tree which was relatively easy since she came from such a prominent family. I went as far back as Cornthwaite Ommanney (1736-1801) and there is nobody by the name of Nicholson on it.

 

I'd also checked out Dalgety Edward Ommanney Nicholson's tree and could find no other persons with Ommanney, Moore or even Dalgety as part of their name.

 

When I searched ancestry for Ommanney as a surname in the UK I got 1,272 hits.

When I searched for Ommanney as a forename I got 495,610.

 

JP 

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HolymoleyRE
35 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

Hugh Lancelot Lyndhurst was actually Hugh Lancelot Bush, born 1885 Small Heath,Birmingham.

Cheers SB. 

Andy 

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helpjpl
2 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

 69 Southwold Mansions is next door to where J E Moore was resident in 1916.

 

 

I think it highly unlikely that solicitor John Ernest Moore ever lived at Southwold Mansions. According to the London Directories he lived most of his adult life in SW4 and died there in 1939 leaving £147,972 16s 2d.

 

A national property survey in 1910 talked of the Southwold Mansion residents as: 'Tenants who hold monthly and yearly agreements are from an exceedingly doubtful class and considerable losses are sustained in respect of bad tenants.'

 

We don't know if the J E Moore residing at Southwold Mansions in 1916 was using his real name and If he was we don't know his forenames or age.

 

JP

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IPT
2 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Queenie N Lyndhurst-Bush's death registered in 1930, but for the life of me cannot find a birth registration....

 

 

I wonder if it’s this one, but I can’t explain why Marshall.

 

Births Sep 1915   (>99%)
Marshall  Queenie N L  Challen  Wandsworth  1d 828

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HolymoleyRE
1 hour ago, helpjpl said:

 

I think it highly unlikely that solicitor John Ernest Moore ever lived at Southwold Mansions. According to the London Directories he lived most of his adult life in SW4 and died there in 1939 leaving £147,972 16s 2d

Again inclined to agree JP, he lived in Clarence House, Clapham from at least 1911, and was a Partner in a more well to do Solicitors, so cannot see him linked to the "Movie Business"

 

Looking at other newspapers article for Southwold Mansions, it seems a hot bed of actresses, theft, the odd Army Officer (a couple of KiA) even a Russian or two. 

 

So defo seems somewhere you could hide. 

 

Andy 

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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sadbrewer
2 hours ago, helpjpl said:

 

Wife of solicitor John Ernest Moore:

I'd checked out Julia Cranstown Ommanney's tree which was relatively easy since she came from such a prominent family. I went as far back as Cornthwaite Ommanney (1736-1801) and there is nobody by the name of Nicholson on it.

 

I'd also checked out Dalgety Edward Ommanney Nicholson's tree and could find no other persons with Ommanney, Moore or even Dalgety as part of their name.

 

When I searched ancestry for Ommanney as a surname in the UK I got 1,272 hits.

When I searched for Ommanney as a forename I got 495,610.

 

JP 

   

   I can only assume Findmypast is letting me down...UK births between 1850 and 1930 with Ommanney as a forename are showing up as only 11...including females.

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sadbrewer
17 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Again inclined to agree JP, he lived in Clarence House, Clapham from at least 1911, and was a Partner in a more well to do Solicitors, so cannot see him linked to the "Movie Business"

 

  Hi Andy, I'm certainly not saying it is him, but I would say he is exactly the kind of person investing in the movie business at the time, it's difficult to imagine now but this business was mushrooming almost out of control...people with surplus cash were getting in wherever they could, literally hundreds of companies were setting up every year and solicitors and accountants had not only the financial capability but also the expertise necessary to handle the legalities and finances.

 

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HolymoleyRE
23 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

Ommanney as a forename are showing up as only 11...including females.

I get slightly less... 🤔 And not much more on surnames.. 🤔🤔

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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Elise.h1009

There is an Ernest J Moore who was in the Royal Garrison Artillery Regiment. He held the rank of Lieutenant at one point.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4114675

 

First and middle names were often used interchangeably so it’s possible?

Edited by Elise.h1009

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helpjpl
1 hour ago, HolymoleyRE said:

I get slightly less... 🤔 And not much more on surnames.. 🤔🤔

 

I did a basic search when I was looking to see if there was a link between the Ommanney and Nicholson families.

 

JP

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helpjpl

Case Review:

 

Nobody can find a marriage record for Ada prior to the birth which suggests that 'Jack Ernest Moore' may be made up to avoid the shame of a birth certificate which records that Eileen was 'born out of wedlock' and/or to conceal the identity of the real father. (See last para in #3).

Note:  From 1875 the reputed father had to be present at the registration to consent to his name being used. I don't know when this stopped but clearly did not apply in 1918. (see birth certificate #6)

 

'We know that Eileen was born in a private clinic. Single mothers often stayed up to 3 months - presumably arriving when the 'bump' could no longer be concealed. A stay at one of these clinics would have been expensive but there is no way of knowing who paid.

 

There is only circumstantial evidence that George S Wind may be the father. He had no money but his wife Beatrice must have had money of her own to file for divorce.

 

John Ernest Moore may or may not have had dealings with the movie business.  I don't see that it's relevant since there is no evidence he is the father.

 

Eileen has been searching for the identity of her grandfather for years and I think it is beholden on us all to provide reasons when we put forward a name.

 

I hope nobody is offended - none meant. i posted this because the thread is going off in all sorts of directions and I can't see why.

 

JP

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HolymoleyRE
18 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

I hope nobody is offended - none meant. i posted this because the thread is going off in all sorts of directions and I can't see why.

None taken JP, and thanks for bringing us back in line, in part guilty, but only in an attempt to connect the names mooted with the limited true facts we have amongst the circumstantial coincidences. 

Andy

Edited by HolymoleyRE

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PRC
33 minutes ago, helpjpl said:

Case Review:

 

Nobody can find a marriage record for Ada prior to the birth which suggests that 'Jack Ernest Moore' may be made up to avoid the shame of a birth certificate which records that Eileen was 'born out of wedlock' and/or to conceal the identity of the real father. (See last para in #3).

Note:  From 1875 the reputed father had to be present at the registration to consent to his name being used. I don't know when this stopped but clearly did not apply in 1918. (see birth certificate #6)

 

'We know that Eileen was born in a private clinic. Single mothers often stayed up to 3 months - presumably arriving when the 'bump' could no longer be concealed. A stay at one of these clinics would have been expensive but there is no way of knowing who paid.

 

There is only circumstantial evidence that George S Wind may be the father. He had no money but his wife Beatrice must have had money of her own to file for divorce.

 

John Ernest Moore may or may not have had dealings with the movie business.  I don't see that it's relevant since there is no evidence he is the father.

 

Eileen has been searching for the identity of her grandfather for years and I think it is beholden on us all to provide reasons when we put forward a name.

 

Agreed - we were never likely to find a "smoking gun" in the paper trail as far as the biological parents are concerned. Once it became clear there was no discoverable supporting evidence for the information given about the parents on the birth certificate that we were into the realms of speculation. As suggested in posts #18 & #20 the DNA route may give a way forward.

 

Whether Ada Annie Evans was the stage name of some aspiring movie starlet, a married mans mistress, or a relation of the eventual foster mother, (or some combination of all three), we shall probably never know. My initial thoughts had been baby farming - a boom industry in the twenties with very shady practices and big criminal fraternity involvement, but if Christine stayed with Ada until she was 2 and a half then that seems to rule that theory out.

 

Will still be good to know whats in the officers file for George Wind in case it sheds any more light, but otherwise we could be in danger of disppearing down rabbit holes:)

 

Cheers,

Peter

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sadbrewer
3 hours ago, helpjpl said:

Case Review:

 

Nobody can find a marriage record for Ada prior to the birth which suggests that 'Jack Ernest Moore' may be made up to avoid the shame of a birth certificate which records that Eileen was 'born out of wedlock' and/or to conceal the identity of the real father. (See last para in #3).

Note:  From 1875 the reputed father had to be present at the registration to consent to his name being used. I don't know when this stopped but clearly did not apply in 1918. (see birth certificate #6)

 

'We know that Eileen was born in a private clinic. Single mothers often stayed up to 3 months - presumably arriving when the 'bump' could no longer be concealed. A stay at one of these clinics would have been expensive but there is no way of knowing who paid.

 

There is only circumstantial evidence that George S Wind may be the father. He had no money but his wife Beatrice must have had money of her own to file for divorce.

 

John Ernest Moore may or may not have had dealings with the movie business.  I don't see that it's relevant since there is no evidence he is the father.

 

Eileen has been searching for the identity of her grandfather for years and I think it is beholden on us all to provide reasons when we put forward a name.

 

I hope nobody is offended - none meant. i posted this because the thread is going off in all sorts of directions and I can't see why.

 

JP

Case Review:

 

There is only circumstantial evidence that George S Wind may be the father.

 

It is certainly circumstantial but based on the address given, it points to either George Wind or Dalgety Nicholson...we have no other potential candidates.

 

He had no money but his wife Beatrice must have had money of her own to file for divorce.

 

I'm not sure it's fair to say that Wind had no money, or at least access to it...the Wind family to some degree did...there is a photo online of his Aunt in the late 20's with her motor car.

 

John Ernest Moore may or may not have had dealings with the movie business.  I don't see that it's relevant.

  Agreed....but the Ommanny name connection may have legs...I have found that Dalgety Nicholson's father married for the second time in 1880 to Laura Beauchant,

a Mr & Mrs Ommanney were guests at the wedding. Anne Beauchant married an Edmund Ommanney in 1852. Both Nicholson and Ommanney were London Clergy at various stages.

 

Nobody can find a marriage record for Ada prior to the birth which suggests that 'Jack Ernest Moore' may be made up to avoid the shame of a birth certificate which records that Eileen was 'born out of wedlock' and/or to conceal the identity of the real father. (See last para in #3).

 Agreed but it also may be that the clinic insisted on a name, address or a verifiable cheque for their own security...one of those at least may be correct.

 


.

Eileen has been searching for the identity of her grandfather for years and I think it is beholden on us all to provide reasons when we put forward a name.

Agreed

I hope nobody is offended - none meant. i posted this because the thread is going off in all sorts of directions and I can't see why.

 

None taken...it certainly was veering from the core issue...DNA is the only real way forward, it may not absolutely prove Wind or Nicholson, depending on matches available online, but it may give a very strong indication. My experience with DNA is very positive.

 

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Lawlessx

Thank you guys ! 

 

The next step for Pat is ancestry DNA I think.

 

I will meet her this week and have a chat - she also going to bring all the information she has herself! 

 

Liam

 

 

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IPT

I would still be interested to know who the fourth person living with Sidney JC Evans in 1939 is, on the off-chance it’s a parent.

 

His date of birth (14/08/18), may rule him out as a twin, but a birth in Paddington, with parents Moore and Evans, is worth checking, I think.

 

Edited by IPT
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sadbrewer
10 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Agreed - we were never likely to find a "smoking gun" in the paper trail as far as the biological parents are concerned. Once it became clear there was no discoverable supporting evidence for the information given about the parents on the birth certificate that we were into the realms of speculation. As suggested in posts #18 & #20 the DNA route may give a way forward.

 

Whether Ada Annie Evans was the stage name of some aspiring movie starlet, a married mans mistress, or a relation of the eventual foster mother, (or some combination of all three), we shall probably never know. My initial thoughts had been baby farming - a boom industry in the twenties with very shady practices and big criminal fraternity involvement, but if Christine stayed with Ada until she was 2 and a half then that seems to rule that theory out.

 

Will still be good to know whats in the officers file for George Wind in case it sheds any more light, but otherwise we could be in danger of disppearing down rabbit holes:)

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

   The divorce cases might also be worth reading...it's possible that there are some absolute revelations in there, I'm no expert but from what I understand the case had to be rigorously scrutinised to stand a chance of being accepted. Unfortunately Kew is rather too far for me.

   The DNA test will almost certainly open the investigation up, but to what degree one never knows.My own experience was very positive, the results took six weeks or so to arrive but immediately confirmed a third cousin in Australia ( who I had found previously online) and three other third cousins I hadn't found...in the UK...all these became very easy to fit into the tree from there. Initially it showed around 200 relatives (to some degree) and over the last couple of years another 150 or so have been added... It does though depend on like minded relatives submitting their samples, and after  fourth cousin it can be very difficult to find the relationship.

   If the currently unknown Grandmother went on to have other children.. and if any Grandchildren have gone down the DNA route it could provide some very close matches. In some ways the true identity of Ada Annie Evans is even more intriguing.

 

  In the case of our 5 Kildare Terrace candidates, there are a small number of people online with them in the tree, but as neither seem to have officially had children it is unlikely to produce an absolute eureka moment, but any connection to either tree arguably provides the smoking gun. 

   Having said all that the DNA might provide reasonably close identifiable matches to people we haven't considered...then we can all start again.

Andy

Edited by sadbrewer

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HolymoleyRE
1 hour ago, IPT said:

I would still be interested to know who the fourth person living with Sidney

Likley to be Joyce W Moore born in 1938, Sidney married Rose Hunt in 1937.

 

Andy 

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PRC

So what I think is outstanding to do’s are:

 

Officer file for George Stephen Wind – Kew (David Owen has in hand)

Divorce File George Stephen Wind and Beatrice Wind 1919 - Kew

Newspaper reports on BNA \ FMP etc about the divorce – if it involved mistresses and the movie industry that would have been too juicy not to report.

DNA test for Pat, (if she wants to) and any additional information she can provide.

 

If no-ones looked before I next go to the library I’ll do the BNA check.

Anything else?

 

Cheers,

Peter

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IPT
Just now, HolymoleyRE said:

Likley to be Joyce W Moore born in 1938, Sidney married Rose Hunt in 1937.

 

Yes, I suspect that she is the one that is closed. I may be reading it incorrectly that there were four residents.

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IPT

Of George Wind's multitude of addresses, the one one his medal card, from February 1920, is interesting.

 

Forest Hill, Beaumont, Jersey was a grand house owned by James Fairweather, a retired Indian Army Surgeon-General who had fought in the Indian Mutiny. He died in 1917 and left the house to his children.

 

1911 census

Household                 Role      Sex        Age    Birthplace
James Fairweather    Head    Male       82    Angus Brechin Res, Forfarshire
Annette Fairweather    Wife    Female   58    India Simla Res
Jas C T Fairweather    Son     Male       34    India Delhi Res
Ian Fairweather            Son    Male       19    Stirling Bridge Of Allan Res, Stirlingshire 

(I don't want to be told off by helpjpl but this man is fascinating -

https://www.nicholasshakespeare.com/writings/essays/ian-fairweather/ 

http://www.ianfairweather.info/01_cms/details.asp?ID=1 ).

 

I can't seem to find who lived in Forest Hill in 1920, but by 1925 it was owed by Percy Newman Hall.  Ian Fairweather, a Captain in the 1st Cheshire regiment, who was a POW, has Beaumont, Jersey on his medal card.

 

It would be interesting to learn how Wind found himself there, although he was stealing a car in London only two months later.

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IPT

I'm just putting all the George Stephen Wind information in one place.  Happy to be corrected.

 

1895 - Born in Maidstone, Kent.

1901 census - Living in Maidstone with parents and sister May Isabel Wind.

13/5/1910 - Joins the Merchant Navy in Glasgow

1911 census - Scottish??

11th January 1915 - Enters France as Driver with 2nd Aircraft Park

19th September 1915 - Commissioned 7th KOYLI

February 1916 - Sick Leave

1916 - Marriage to Beatrice Louise Bown

27th July 1916 & 14th August 1916 - Passes bad cheques to a catering firm (Messeurs Cox & co.) and an Orderly, E. W. Nicholls

4th November 1916 -  charged with 'Conduct to the prejudice of good order and Military Discipline' and 'behaving in a scandalous manner unbecoming the character of an officer and a gentleman' for impersonating a naval officer.

15th August 1917 - Relinquishes his commission on account of ill health caused by wounds

1917 - Silver War Badge number 240014. Address -  46, Southwald Mansions, Maida Vale

15/8/1917 Relinquishes his commission on grounds of ill health.

1918 - Living at 5 Kilmore Terrace with Dalgety Edward Nicholson, 1/A.M.RAF

1919 -  Beatrice Louise Wind petitions for divorce

April 29, 1919 - 6 months in second division for larceny

October 10, 1919, Bound over In the sum of £10 for obtaining a motor-cycle by false pretences

1920 - Co-respondent in divorce between Owen Llewellyn Owen and Honor Cecial McLean Owen.

1920 February - Medal card gives address as Forest Hill, Beaumont Hill, Jersey. Medals returned.

1920 March - Committed for breaking into a garage and stealing a motor car. Address: Queensborough Terrace, Paddington

1920 April 27th - Bound over for two years .Claimed to have been an RAF officer that crashed from 5000ft.

1924 - Drives bus into a ditch in Kent. Address: Sandown, Haslemere Road, Beltinge, Herne Bay

1928 November - Forms a company known as "Red Road Cars" with money borrowed from his mother.

6th April 1929 - M&D take over 12A bus route from G.S. Wind t/a Red Road Cars in the Maidstone area.

1929 June - Marriage to Alberta "Coralie" Armitage in Lambeth (she re-married in 1954 and died in 1982 Horsham)

1929 September - 6 months hard labour Addresses - Gleneldon Road, Streatham (Aug 1929) and Fontenoy Road, Balham (Sept 1929). Fraudulent motor deal.

1930 - Case for dangerous driving in bus dismissed. “Sun Haven", Collingwood Road, Whitstable

1931 - Wife Coralie Wind fined for keeping a dog without a licence. Address: 69, Windmill-lane, Greenford

1931 - Living at 8a Castlebar Road, Harrow with Alberta Coralie. 

1933 - Living at 112 Cambridge Street, Westminster with "Caroline" Wind

1934 - Living at 10 Lyndhurst Gardens, Hendon with Alberta Coralie.

1936 - Living at 61 Woodham Lane, Chertsey with Coralie.

1937 - George 'Victor' Wind living with Coralie Alberta at Flat 2, 2-10 Jerdan Place, Hammersmith.

1938 - Living at 26b Belgrave Road, Westminster with Coralie.

1939 - Living at 1 Gloucester Street with Coralie.

1939 register - Coralie A Wind, widow, short-hand typist, 1 Gloucester Street

1939 register - George S Wind born 9/2/1895 living with brother-in-law Leonard G Barnes, sister May and mother Ellen  at 31 Bridle Road, Pinner.

1939 register - George S Wind born 9/2/1897 living with the Frew family at 347 Sutton Common Road, Sutton/Cheam.

1940 - Wife Coralie charged with soliciting at Wilton road, Pimlico  Address: Gloucester Street, Pimlico

24th June 1941 - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Temporary Lieutenant

1944 June - Marriage to Ivy Lilian Wale nee Westall in Hampstead. (Died 1991 in Havering, Essex)

1944 Navy List - Temporary Acting Lt. Commander (President III)

1946 - Living at 54c King Henry's Road, Hampstead with Ivy L Wind.

1951 - Death in Northampton, aged 56

 

Edited by IPT
Additions

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DavidOwen

Seems George S Wind was the driver of an East Kent Bus when it had a small mishap in October 1924. His address given then is Sandown, Haslemere Road, Beltinge, Herne Bay. No one was seriously hurt in the incident.

image.png

 

 

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