yoery11 Posted 6 August , 2019 Share Posted 6 August , 2019 hello everyone! I just signed up to this forum, and wil first introduce myself. my name is marvin and I live in the Netherlands, so excuse me for language mistakes I just bought a second hand Fusil gras Mle 1874, it just arrived and need a little bit of help with the identification since it has a gras bolt but smooth barrel? also the rear sight is different and the bayonet "lug" is missing? the year it was built is 1875 and converted in 1878? and what would it be worth? I think the condition is quite good. see pictures below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin ss002d6252 Posted 6 August , 2019 Admin Share Posted 6 August , 2019 Is this a weapon that would be used in the WW1 era ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoery11 Posted 6 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2019 10 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: Is this a weapon that would be used in the WW1 era ? Craig hello craig, yes this weapon is used during the ww1 era, although not so much since there was much development in that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierssc Posted 6 August , 2019 Share Posted 6 August , 2019 Hello Marvin, and welcome to the forum Built in Chatellerault, and apparently smooth bored since then (at St Etienne), and the rear sight removed and replaced by the simple one there at present. Numbers on bolt and stock (can't see the body) don't match. I wonder if the French converted them for issue to Colonial troops or police or something like that? Craig, the Gras were rather long in the tooth by WW1, but still used - there was a thread not so long ago in the Middle Eastern section concerning some cartridge cases found on a dig, which led on to some photos of them in the hands of irregular troops. My nautical grandfather picked up a carbine version somewhere in those parts at that time. So it may just about be within the Forum's terms of reference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin ss002d6252 Posted 6 August , 2019 Admin Share Posted 6 August , 2019 Just now, pierssc said: Hello Marvin, and welcome to the forum Built in Chatellerault, and apparently smooth bored since then (at St Etienne), and the rear sight removed and replaced by the simple one there at present. Numbers on bolt and stock (can't see the body) don't match. I wonder if the French converted them for issue to Colonial troops or police or something like that? Craig, the Gras were rather long in the tooth by WW1, but still used - there was a thread not so long ago in the Middle Eastern section concerning some cartridge cases found on a dig, which led on to some photos of them in the hands of irregular troops. My nautical grandfather picked up a carbine version somewhere in those parts at that time. So it may just about be within the Forum's terms of reference! Just now, yoery11 said: hello craig, yes this weapon is used during the ww1 era, although not so much since there was much development in that time. Fine to continue then for now as far as I'm concerned.. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoery11 Posted 6 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 August , 2019 3 minutes ago, pierssc said: Hello Marvin, and welcome to the forum Built in Chatellerault, and apparently smooth bored since then (at St Etienne), and the rear sight removed and replaced by the simple one there at present. Numbers on bolt and stock (can't see the body) don't match. I wonder if the French converted them for issue to Colonial troops or police or something like that? Craig, the Gras were rather long in the tooth by WW1, but still used - there was a thread not so long ago in the Middle Eastern section concerning some cartridge cases found on a dig, which led on to some photos of them in the hands of irregular troops. My nautical grandfather picked up a carbine version somewhere in those parts at that time. So it may just about be within the Forum's terms of reference! hi pierssc, thank you for your reply, with the smooth bore it still fires the 11x59R? paper or brass cartridge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierssc Posted 6 August , 2019 Share Posted 6 August , 2019 (edited) I really wouldn't like to say - are there no proof marks indicating what it was converted to? Somebody who knows will probably be along shortly - and if not I may have a book somewhere. I'll have a dig around. EDIT My library isn't big enough - nothing found. The smooth bore conversion to a larger bore than 11mm will mean it wouldn't use the original rifle cartridges. I would guess a commercial shotgun cartridge. 20g maybe? 28g? I think the firing pin may have been cut but just in case you were tempted, even if you find out what it took, please don't even think of trying to shoot anything through it without (1) getting it thoroughly checked out by a competent gunsmith (and I mean really competent - I suspect experts on the Gras are few and far between) and (2) ensuring that it is legal to shoot it in your jurisdiction. I don't think it looks in good condition and I don't like the look of the thin barrel at the muzzle end and we know from the mismatched numbers (there is a third number on the barrel where the bayonet fits) that the bolt and the barrel and the stock are from different rifles. I think this one should just be looked at. The Gras seems to have had a remarkably long life. In the 1990s I went on holiday to Yemen when the UK Adventure Travel operators were running tours there in between civil wars and tourist kidnappings. It was... interesting. It's a place where almost all men wore a curved dagger in their waistbands, and most carried a firearm. The most popular accessory by far was the AK47 but there were still a few old men in the countryside carrying the Gras, and there were quite a few for sale in the junk/curiosity shops around the country. I shall have to dig out my diary and photos but it may well be they were shotgun versions like yours - the rear sight and mismatched numbers ring bells in my mind. I reckoned that it wasn't a good idea to take one home, especially as I was travelling by plane! There are some previous threads on Gras rifles and bayonets which you might be interested in (just search for "Gras"). For example this and this . Edited 6 August , 2019 by pierssc Updated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 7 August , 2019 Share Posted 7 August , 2019 That must be a shotgun conversion, and an old conversion at that. They took most of the barrel off from inside, reaming out. Modern shotgun shells, with the modern powder would most likely burst the barrel, being so thin walled now. With exception of British Cordite, the regular smokeless gun powder even through the 1920's - 1930's was strong, but not as refined and little less power than modern. I simply guessing surplus conversion after WW1, to 1930's. I have a Geha shotgun they were made from Mauser M71 rifles, see with barrels reamed out a little and mostly simply rebarreling them. They were common for he farmers and the poor. This is just a big fancy guess😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoery11 Posted 7 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2019 wow! it really shocks me that this is a shotgun conversion since there is a little to no information about it. now it makes sence that it says " cal 20" behind the rear sight I've also noticed the thin barrel from the beginning, so don't be afraid I will ever shoot it. but since there is little known about the shotgun conversion, where can I get more info? thanks for the replies so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierssc Posted 7 August , 2019 Share Posted 7 August , 2019 Does it have M.80 stamped on the left hand side of the breech, underneath the "Chatellerault"? If not, it looks as if it was converted to a shotgun before (or without) the modification made in 1880 to allow gas to escape in the event of a case rupture - so a conversion in 1878 at St Etienne sounds plausible. Why convert a still-current model? Possibly because of damage which made it unfit for normal issue, or maybe it was made up from spare parts - at any rate your one seems to be a composite of at least three rifles. Perhaps there was a shortgun version for official issue (I'm thinking crowd control here) but I haven't found a reference to one yet in Googling, though there's quite a bit on other conversions. More likely (as Steve says) that it was surplus stock converted to be sold off cheaply to farmers in the Middle East/North Africa. There are some interesting posts on the Gras if you Google a bit: http://www.virdea.net/french/74.html https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/the-french-model-1874-gras-rifle/248489 https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1073509-Fusil-Gras-Modèle-1874-M80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 August , 2019 Share Posted 7 August , 2019 The Gras - in original and Waffenfabrik form - was used certainly by the Greek army in WW1 and also in the Turkish War of Independence, and I believe, but need to check so don't quote me, was also issued to Landsturm in 1914-18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoery11 Posted 7 August , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 August , 2019 8 hours ago, pierssc said: Does it have M.80 stamped on the left hand side of the breech, underneath the "Chatellerault"? If not, it looks as if it was converted to a shotgun before (or without) the modification made in 1880 to allow gas to escape in the event of a case rupture - so a conversion in 1878 at St Etienne sounds plausible. Why convert a still-current model? Possibly because of damage which made it unfit for normal issue, or maybe it was made up from spare parts - at any rate your one seems to be a composite of at least three rifles. Perhaps there was a shortgun version for official issue (I'm thinking crowd control here) but I haven't found a reference to one yet in Googling, though there's quite a bit on other conversions. More likely (as Steve says) that it was surplus stock converted to be sold off cheaply to farmers in the Middle East/North Africa. There are some interesting posts on the Gras if you Google a bit: http://www.virdea.net/french/74.html https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/the-french-model-1874-gras-rifle/248489 https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1073509-Fusil-Gras-Modèle-1874-M80 itt doesn't have the m80 mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assafx Posted 8 August , 2019 Share Posted 8 August , 2019 On 06/08/2019 at 22:14, ss002d6252 said: Is this a weapon that would be used in the WW1 era ? Craig yes, it took me some time to prove it. you can see it was used by the ottoman army in this thread. see post 83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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