Two medals in Ankara

[trajan]

32 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

 

Well done on saving the medals

 

Thanks Michael, an expensive business saving these but a nice feeling even so, especially when a history becomes available.

 

I had hoped to get to Gallipoli during the last Kurban Bayram when I was in Istanbul, but family matters intervened...!!!

On 01/09/2019 at 19:25, chaz said:

 

as for value, Im watching a trio to a family named man price is £175 probably double what a survivor is worth, will have to pay it if I want it..!! but then if he was 1/7/16 then could be many times more, even to the extent of adding a zero to the end..

 

Chaz, Heck! I don't buy to sell except to pass on to family, but alarming prices there!

[JMB1943]

Trajan,

 

I read that as West Ham Union, i.e. the workhouse.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Julian,

That's 'Union', not Prison (!)...

Most noble of you to go to the expense of rescuing the BWM from oblivion.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[trajan]

14 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

I read that as West Ham Union, i.e. the workhouse.

 

14 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

That's 'Union', not Prison (!)...

Most noble of you to go to the expense of rescuing the BWM from oblivion.

 

I stand corrected - many thanks both! I guess that there mist be an interesting story behind that bequest...

 

Kim, an expensive side-line but I just hate to think of these things being sold and bought for their silver content - the seller of this one was repeatedly stessing its silver value... Stars and victory medals turn up occassionaly, in one case a pair that was bought at an auction in the UK ! However, the economy beng what it is here then I force myself to buying ones for which I can get a more detailed history other than name and number, etc. See, e.g., https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/273575-266238-hwfinch-rsfus/?tab=comments#comment-2781730

 

Julian 

[charlie962]

19 hours ago, trajan said:

Enemy shelled all around XXX

Enemy shelled all around Bn (Battalion) Headquarters

[charlie962]

14 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

I read that as West Ham Union, i.e. the workhouse.

Well read, JMB and Kim. I had read it as prison and wondered why I couldn't find any further reference !

[trajan]

33 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Enemy shelled all around Bn (Battalion) Headquarters

 

Thanks - obvious, really - in retrospect! 

According to: http://www.essexregiment.co.uk/2ndxmas1914.html Companies A and C were involved in the 10th December 1914 meeting. 

[Medaler]

Hiya Julian,

 

Sorry, I have been trying to fathom out a Chesterfield casualty all day (without success) and had missed all your questions on here.

 

One that doesn't seem to have been addressed is "Warley". I think this some military establishment in Britain where the accounts were done for his gratuity. So its a bit of a red herring really.

 

The 12th Jan War Diary entry shows just the one KIA, so that must be your bloke Driver. It seems likely he was hit during the shelling of the HQ area. If B relieved C in the trenches the day before, that would presumably put C in the vicinity of the HQ. Similarly, if D relieved A on the day he died, then both of those were presumably in the vicinity of the HQ at some point in the day. The only thing I can say is that it looks unlikely that he was with B. Having said that, it remains possible that nobody was injured in the shelling and a sniper got him in the trenches. Perhaps not as daft as it sounds as a shell would likely have caused more damage than 1 killed and 0 wounded?

 

What I would like to see now is an obituary with a photo of him and some indication of any memorial where he is commemorated in the UK. Though I have looked for both, so far I have found neither, but I am pretty bad with those two things for anyone on that side of the River Trent. The mention of the Workhouse sadly makes me suspect that he may never have been honoured in either of those two ways. That makes the medal really important in my eyes, as it is perhaps the only surviving memorial for him (other than his headstone).

 

Lads could enlist at a very young age (I can't remember exactly which age, though 14 rings a bell), but they were taken on as "Boy Soldiers" who should never have gone on active service. I believe that any service under the age of eighteen didn't even count towards their pensions as they were not considered as "effective". I also think that they shouldn't have gone overseas in the early days of the war if they were under 18 1/2, but again, I can't remember the exact terms. There are of course many well documented exceptions. It has to be tempered by the knowledge that many lads worked down mines from the age of 14 in those days, and that the "Senior Service" had no such scruples about sending boys to war, which they did legitimately. I have recently picked up a 14-15 Trio where the rank on all 3 medals is "Boy 1". At 16 years of age he was sealed in a metal tin (HMS Lowestoft) and present at the Battle of Heligoland Bight. When HMS Queen Mary was lost at Jutland more of her Ratings had "Boy" in their title than "Seaman". It's sobering stuff isn't it?

 

Cheers,

Mike

[trajan]

Thanks Mike, so that's Warley sorted.

 

Yes, it is natural to assume he fell victim to the shelling, but if so, an awful lot of iron expended to relatively little effect. Incidentally, when reading German and British war diaries I am often amazed how slight the number of casualties was per day per unit from shelling and sniping, but the cumulative effect and then the 'fixed' battles...Thanks though for tring to find out more on Driver. I am planning to have a holiday while in the UK - i.e., no academic research! - and so maybe I can get some time to do archival work!

 

Julian

 

PS: yes, the ages of those poor boys - literally - on RN service is both an eye-opener and shocking...

 

Edited 8 September , 2019 by trajan

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Julian,

I get the Impression that things that appear shocking to us today, were far more accepted in those das.

Kindest regards,

Kim.