Two medals in Ankara

[trajan]

Just for the record really, in case anyone is looking for missing medals for these men. Both spotted at the Ankara Antika Pazari. 

 

BWM for 10206 H.W.Driver, Essex Regiment. I was assured by the dealer that this was solid silver... (Same guy once tried to sell me a WW1 German army buckle as a genuine SS one!)

 

BVM for 010663 A.Puttick, AOC. Lacking its attachment ring and I wondered about that serial - is it O (letter) 10663? or really 0 (zero) 10663? Either way the same dealer, who assured me this was gilt over silver....

 

Neither man seems to be on the CWGC list.

 

Trajan

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, trajan said:

BWM for 10206 H.W.Driver, Essex Regiment.

 

CWGC Headstone has NoK

 

SDGW says

Forename	Henry William
Surname	Driver
Born	Balham, Surrey
Enlisted	Warley, Essex
Place of Residence	South Woodford, Essex
Service Number	10206
Rank	Private
Cause of Death	Killed In Action
Place of Death	France & Flanders
Date of Death	12th January 1915
Regiment	Essex Regiment, 2nd Battalion

7 hours ago, trajan said:

BVM for 010663 A.Puttick, AOC

MIC says entitled to BWM/VM Albert Puttick 010663

 

 

Charlie

 

I suupose these silver medals have reached Turkey just as scrap metal exchange !

Edited 6 August , 2019 by charlie962

[trajan]

Thanks Charlie - wonder how I missed the Driver one on CWGC? I do see the BWM's reasonably often here, presunably having arrived (as you say) as scrap, and in the past I used to buy them to 'save' them, but the asking prices here are 30-50% or more than in the UK so I stopped doing that.

 

Julian

Edited 6 August , 2019 by trajan

[Medaler]

On 06/08/2019 at 14:14, trajan said:

Thanks Charlie - wonder how I missed the Driver one on CWGC? I do see the BWM's reasonably often here, presunably having arrived (as you say) as scrap, and in the past I used to buy them to 'save' them, but the asking prices here are 30-50% or more than in the UK so I stopped doing that.

 

Julian

 

Depends on the asking price, but Essex Regt BWM may still be a bargain. On the other hand, if the VM really is gilt over silver, its a very "high end" fake!

 

Regards,

Mike

[trajan]

7 hours ago, Medaler said:

Depends on the asking price, but Essex Regt BWM may still be a bargain. On the other hand, if the VM really is gilt over silver, its a very "high end" fake!

 

Quite agree on the BVM!

 

I knew nothing of the activity of the Essex Regiment until your post alerted me to this. So, Pvte. Driver could have been in it from the start with the 2nd Batt., which would, I suppose, make the medal of greater value than usual to an Essex Regt. specialist.

 

Julian

[Medaler]

2 hours ago, trajan said:

 

Quite agree on the BVM!

 

I knew nothing of the activity of the Essex Regiment until your post alerted me to this. So, Pvte. Driver could have been in it from the start with the 2nd Batt., which would, I suppose, make the medal of greater value than usual to an Essex Regt. specialist.

 

Julian

 

its the casualty status that matters - think usual value x2 (ish). Also, the 2nd Essex were to some degree involved in the Christmas Truce - and that's always a popular subject.

 

His MIC gives an embarkation date of 22.08.14 and LLT states Bn. landed 28.08.14 - so he was an "original" member of the Bn. to land as part of 4th Division. A man of the original BEF and with clear entitlement to a '14 Star.

 

I think you are giving me some credit for Charlie's post!

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited 9 August , 2019 by Medaler
additions

[trajan]

Well, credit equally shared Mike! I had of course completely forgotten about the somewhat goulish (to my mind) higher value given to medals to chaps KIA while medals given to those that survived the same bout are less-well regarded.

 

Anyway, I'll check the price again. As I said in post no. 3 - and you will be aware - I always used to pick up British War medals when I saw them on sale here just to 'save' them, and in that way picked up some nice ones with interesting histories. But, it was getting difficult as the cash was needed elsewhere with two growing boys and beer prices(!) fast exceeding those in the UK... There again, I reckon my dear SWBO would rather I collected medals if only because they are cheaper than bayonets! 

 

Julian

[Medaler]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

Well, credit equally shared Mike! I had of course completely forgotten about the somewhat goulish (to my mind) higher value given to medals to chaps KIA while medals given to those that survived the same bout are less-well regarded.

 

Anyway, I'll check the price again. As I said in post no. 3 - and you will be aware - I always used to pick up British War medals when I saw them on sale here just to 'save' them, and in that way picked up some nice ones with interesting histories. But, it was getting difficult as the cash was needed elsewhere with two growing boys and beer prices(!) fast exceeding those in the UK... There again, I reckon my dear SWBO would rather I collected medals if only because they are cheaper than bayonets! 

 

Julian

 

Let the boys buy their own beer - problem solved!

 

I reckon it's one worth saving, If you do invest I will try to help with the research if you like.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

 

[trajan]

On 09/08/2019 at 17:10, Medaler said:

 

Let the boys buy their own beer - problem solved! ...  I reckon it's one worth saving, If you do invest I will try to help with the research if you like.

 

Hi Mike,

 

Late reply as I missed your post somehow! I'll see what the price is when back in Ankara briefly on Sunday - fortunately after we get paid Thursday (Friday a holiday here to celebrate, inter alia, the Brits leaving Constaninople!).

 

I guess I'd better not let the kids buy their own beer at ages 12 and 10 not the least because then they'll demand more pocket money... But there again, it might put them to sleep earlier than they have been used to this summer vacation!

 

Julian

[depaor01]

An idle thought... If Pte.  Driver was in the ASC he could've been Driver Driver.

I'll exit quietly!

Dave

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, depaor01 said:

An idle thought... If Pte.  Driver was in the ASC he could've been Driver Driver.

I'll exit quietly!

Dave

This next chap was an extremely close number to my grandfather in the ASC, and most certainly was a Driver:

Link

[trajan]

On 26/08/2019 at 17:45, depaor01 said:

An idle thought... If Pte.  Driver was in the ASC he could've been Driver Driver.

I'll exit quietly!

Dave

 

Actually when I first saw it that was my reaction - he was a driver!

 

Anyway, I went ahead and bought Pte. Driver's BWM at the ridiculously expensive price (I guess, by UK standards) of TL 400 / GBP 55, which is about 25% more than usual for BWM's here, having secured a reduction from TL 500. So, Mike and others, any more information on this poor chap will be gratefully received.

 

Julian

Edited 1 September , 2019 by trajan

[Medaler]

Hiya Julian,

 

Well here's the bits of CWGC not mentioned on here yet......

He's buried at Calvaire (Essex) Military Cemetery, Hainaut, Belgium - a small cemetery with just 218 identified casualties. Backgound is taken from CWGC.........

 

Location Information

Calvaire (Essex) Military Cemetery is located 16 km from Ieper town centre, on a road leading from the N365, connecting Ieper to Wijtschate, Ploegsteert and on to Armentieres. From Ieper town centre the Rijselsestraat runs from the market square, through the Lille Gate (Rijselpoort) and directly over the crossroads with the Ieper ring road. The road name then changes to the Rijselseweg. 2 km after passing through the village of Ploegsteert lies the left hand turning onto Witteweg (Chemin de la Blanche). The cemetery lies 2 km along the Witteweg on the right hand side of the road.

 

History Information

This cemetery was established beside a building known as Essex House and is an example of a regimental cemetery, many of which were made in 1914 and 1915. It was begun in November 1914 by the 2nd Essex and 2nd Monmouthshire Regiments (Rows A to M of Plot I), continued by the 9th Royal Fusiliers and the 11th Middlesex Regiment (Plot I, Row 0), the 7th Suffolk and 9th Essex Regiments (Plot II), the 6th Buffs (Plot III), and the 1/7th and 1/8th Worcestershire Regiment (Plot IV, Rows A to C). Apart from two later burials, the cemetery was completed by the 11th Queen's Royal West Surrey and 10th Royal West Kent Regiments in June and July 1916. It was in German hands from 10 April to 29 September 1918. There are now 218 First World War burials in the cemetery. The cemetery was designed by G H Goldsmith.

 

Driver is in plot Cemetery/memorial reference: I. D. 11.

[Medaler]

A bit of Christmas Truce stuff..................

 

Extract from the “Essex County Standard”, 2 January, 1915

ESSEX COUNTY FRATERNIZE WITH FRITZ: Private H. Scrutton Essex Regiment writes to relatives at Wood Green, N.:- “As I have told you before, our trenches are only 30 or 40 yards away from the Germans. This led to an exciting incident the other day. Our fellows have been in the habit of shouting across to the enemy, and we used to get answers from them. We were to to get into conversation with them, and this is what happened:-
From our trenches, “Good morning, Fritz,” (no answer), “Good Morning, Fritz,” (and still no answer). “GOOD MORNING, FRITZ,” From the German Trenches: “Good morning.”
From our trench: “How are you?”
“All right.”
“Come over here, Fritz.”
“No, if I come, I get shot.”
“No, you won’t, come on.”
“No fear”
“Come and get some fags, Fritz.”
“No, you come half-way, and I meet you.”
“All right.”
One of our fellows thereupon filled his pocket with fags and got over the trench, The German got over his trench; and right enough, they met half-way, and shook hands, Fritz taking the fags and giving chocolate in exchange. t was good to see the Germans standing on top of their trenches and the English, also with caps waving in the air, all cheering. About 18 of our men went half-way and met about the same number of Germans, This lasted about half-an-hour, when each side returned to their trenches to shoot at each other again.”

 

At this time the regiment were in front of Ploegsteert Wood where they were faced by the German 40^th Division

Edited 1 September , 2019 by Medaler

[Medaler]

I can't see any obvious service or pension record on Ancestry, but the Silver War Badge Roll shows that 10205 Harry Marshall (the number before Driver) enlisted 28th July 1913. It also shows 10218 Horace Wm Wootton enlisted 21st August 1913. So Driver looks likely to be an end July / beginning August enlistment date in that year.

 

Army Register of Soldiers Effects gives a "death place" for Driver as Le Gheer. It also gives interesting info about his gratuity. The money went to his step mother, named as Beatrice E., and his brother named as Sidney W. Strangely, and I have never seen this before, there is also mention of his father's funeral. It would be very interesting to see what others make of this.

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited 1 September , 2019 by Medaler
picture added

[charlie962]

Julian, we'll have to find some good info to reward you for saving the medal from the scrap merchant !

 

1911 Census for 3 Grove End, Grove Road, south Woodford

 

Forenam   Surname  Age     Born     Gender     Relat    Status Married Birth Place                 Occupation         
George     Driver       38     1873     Male         Head     Married            Congham, Norfolk     Horse Keeper Provision Merchants     
Ethel         Driver       28     1883     Female     Wife     Married     5      Edwardstone, Suffolk         
Harry        Driver       15      1896     Male        Son         Single             Newington, London     Vanguard Provision Merchants     
Sidney     Driver       13      1898     Male         Son             S                Bermondsey, London         
Alice        Driver        2       1909     Female     Daughter                       Brixton, London         
Leonard  Driver       4 M      1911      Male         Son             S                Woodford, Essex    

 

So

father still alive in 1911

Ethel may be Beatrice E since they've only been married 5 yrs.  (edit- Beatrice Ethel Driver, b 1883 died 1971 Walthamstow Q1 registration)

Henry was known as Harry and born c 1896.

Sidney

 

Charlie

 

EditEdtit:

1901 Census Streatham/Wandsworth

George, father, aged 31, horsekeeper, born Norfolk

Emma, wife, aged 30, born Norfolk

Ernest, 7, b Southwark

Harry, 5, b Southwark

Sidney, 3, b Bermondsey

 

Edited 1 September , 2019 by charlie962

[chaz]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Julian, we'll have to find some good info to reward you for saving the medal from the scrap merchant !

 

1911 Census for 3 Grove End, Grove Road, south Woodford

 

Forenam   Surname  Age     Born     Gender     Relat    Status Married Birth Place                 Occupation         
George     Driver       38     1873     Male         Head     Married            Congham, Norfolk     Horse Keeper Provision Merchants     
Ethel         Driver       28     1883     Female     Wife     Married     5      Edwardstone, Suffolk         
Harry        Driver       15      1896     Male        Son         Single             Newington, London     Vanguard Provision Merchants     
Sidney     Driver       13      1898     Male         Son             S                Bermondsey, London         
Alice        Driver        2       1909     Female     Daughter                       Brixton, London         
Leonard  Driver       4 M      1911      Male         Son             S                Woodford, Essex    

 

So

father still alive in 1911

Ethel may be Beatrice E since they've only been married 5 yrs.  (edit- Beatrice Ethel Driver, b 1883 died 1971 Walthamstow Q1 registration)

Henry was known as Harry and born c 1896.

Sidney

 

Charlie

 

EditEdtit:

1901 Census Streatham/Wandsworth

George, father, aged 31, horsekeeper, born Norfolk

Emma, wife, aged 30, born Norfolk

Ernest, 7, b Southwark

Harry, 5, b Southwark

Sidney, 3, b Bermondsey

 

just to confirm, my uncle Harry was actually born Henry, a usual problem when researching.

nice save in my opinion.

as for value, Im watching a trio to a family named man price is £175 probably double what a survivor is worth, will have to pay it if I want it..!! but then if he was 1/7/16 then could be many times more, even to the extent of adding a zero to the end..

[Medaler]

War Diary entry for 12th Jan ......

[trajan]

VERY quick reply to say thanks really for all of the above. I have so much on right now, and now have to help the kids with their overdue homework plus prepare for filiming a documentary in south Turkey... Tempus fugit... Will be back at the weekend

 

Julian

[trajan]

On 01/09/2019 at 12:37, Medaler said:

 

He's buried at Calvaire (Essex) Military Cemetery, Hainaut, Belgium - a small cemetery with just 218 identified casualties. Backgound is taken from CWGC.........

 

Driver is in plot Cemetery/memorial reference: I. D. 11.

 

Hi Mike,

 

Finally, a chance to reply properly. Thanks for that link, and I also found an excellent series of photographs at: http://thebignote.com/2012/12/06/south-of-ploegsteert-part-three-calvaire-essex-military-cemetery/ This has to be one of the smallest CWGC sites, I guess.

 

Julian

[trajan]

On 01/09/2019 at 12:41, Medaler said:

A bit of Christmas Truce stuff..................

ESSEX COUNTY FRATERNIZE WITH FRITZ:

 

Much appreciated Mike. Made me wonder, though - when did the German soldier stop being the familiar 'Fritz' and became the 'Hun'?

 

PS: maybe in Sheffie 10-19th September.

[michaeldr]

32 minutes ago, trajan said:

This has to be one of the smallest CWGC sites, I guess.

 

Julian,

 

some day soon you must get down to Gallipoli for a look around there

A couple of the smaller cemeteries on the peninsula:-

CANTERBURY CEMETERY, ANZAC - https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/68700/canterbury-cemetery,-anzac/

 PLUGGE'S PLATEAU CEMETERY, ANZAC - https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/66900/plugge's-plateau-cemetery,-anzac/

 

Well done on saving the medals

Michael

[trajan]

On 01/09/2019 at 13:17, Medaler said:

I can't see any obvious service or pension record on Ancestry, but the Silver War Badge Roll shows that 10205 Harry Marshall (the number before Driver) enlisted 28th July 1913. It also shows 10218 Horace Wm Wootton enlisted 21st August 1913. So Driver looks likely to be an end July / beginning August enlistment date in that year.

 

Army Register of Soldiers Effects gives a "death place" for Driver as Le Gheer. It also gives interesting info about his gratuity. The money went to his step mother, named as Beatrice E., and his brother named as Sidney W. Strangely, and I have never seen this before, there is also mention of his father's funeral. It would be very interesting to see what others make of this.

 

Thanks again Mike.

 

So , now I know where the poor chap died... Couple of questions on this document if you could answer please? What is the 'Warley' reference to? And do I really read that as "The Collector to the Guardian of the West Ham Prison"?

[trajan]

On 01/09/2019 at 13:17, Medaler said:

I can't see any obvious service or pension record on Ancestry, but the Silver War Badge Roll shows that 10205 Harry Marshall (the number before Driver) enlisted 28th July 1913. It also shows 10218 Horace Wm Wootton enlisted 21st August 1913. So Driver looks likely to be an end July / beginning August enlistment date in that year.

 

On 01/09/2019 at 15:42, charlie962 said:

Harry        Driver       15      1896     Male        Son         Single             Newington, London     Vanguard Provision Merchants     

Charlie,

Thanks for those details - greatly appreciated.

 

Mike and Charlie, so he enlisted at age 17/18. Was that a common age? I know Roman legionaries did so at an average of 20 but have no idea of early 20th century practices.

Edited 6 September , 2019 by trajan

[trajan]

On 02/09/2019 at 08:35, Medaler said:

War Diary entry for 12th Jan ......

 

Mike, does this narrow him down - at least at the time of death - to A or C Company? Can't quite see what that is in the 'Enemy shelled all around XXX Headquarters'. But looks like him, poor chap...

Edited 6 September , 2019 by trajan