Arthur James Martland RFA 190807

[CBond]

I’m trying to find out about my grandad’s service in WW1. So far I’ve found his medal cards and know he was a gunner in the Royal Field Artillery - Regimental number 190807. I’ve looked on Ancestry and Find my Past but I don’t think his service record has survived. I’ve also found a medical record on Find my Past - the hospital admission and discharge record. This says he was in 16 Company of the Royal Field Artillery. He was admitted to 2nd General Hospital on 4 August 1918 with lobar pneumonia. He was transferred with the sick convoy on 29 August 1918.

i’d always assumed my grandad served in France until I spoke to my elderly aunt yesterday. She remembered that he had been in India because he brought back a number of souvenirs. 

I wonder if any knowledgeable people on here can guide me on where to look next for information about my grandad’s time in India? I know I’m unlikely to find anything specifically about him but I’d like to at least find out where his regiment went. He died in 1946 several years before I was born.

Thank you

Edited 10 August , 2019 by CBond
Regimental number mistyped in text

[Matlock1418]

On 05/08/2019 at 11:41, CBond said:

I wonder if any knowledgeable people on here can guide me on where to look next for information about my grandad’s time in India?

Welcome to the GWF.

I don't know anything about your grandad or his possible service in India but whether you can find anything may depend a bit upon whether it was Pre-War, Wartime or Post-War service in India, and with which unit he served.

I think if he served Post-War then there is possibly a chance that he may have a non-released service record still kept by the MoD - I think only availalbe on application, but know there are much more knowledgeable GWF pals out there who can confim [or contradict!] such a possiblity/explain how this is done.

And/or give you much more help [on the indian matter and perhaps much wider aspects of his service].

Good luck.

Matlock

[MaxD]

The medical report is from, as you say, No 2 General Hospital.  This was in Le Havre so he was in France then.  The record also shows he had one and a half year's service at that point and that he had been at the front for 3 months. in the Field Force for 3 weeks

 

The transcription of his unit is odd.  The Royal Field Artillery didn't have companies, I've clipped a bit out of his record (courtesy FMP)  - others may have an idea of what the unit is 

 

Max

 

(Small thing - you mistyped his number in the text)

Edited 12 August , 2019 by MaxD
Incorrect time with the Field Force

[CBond]

On 09/08/2019 at 15:49, Matlock1418 said:

Welcome to the GWF.

I don't know anything about your grandad or his possible service in India but whether you can find anything may depend a bit upon whether it was Pre-War, Wartime or Post-War service in India, and with which unit he served.

I think if he served Post-War then there is possibly a chance that he may have a non-released service record still kept by the MoD - I think only availalbe on application, but know there are much more knowledgeable GWF pals out there who can confim [or contradict!] such a possiblity/explain how this is done.

And/or give you much more help [on the indian matter and perhaps much wider aspects of his service].

Good luck.

Matlock

My aunt is adamant that my grandad served in India during WW1. However she has been wrong about other family information and so I’m keeping an open mind!

[CBond]

On 09/08/2019 at 16:37, MaxD said:

The medical report is from, as you say, No 2 General Hospital.  This was in Le Havre so he was in France then.  The record also shows he had one and a half year's service at that point and that he had been at the front for 3 months.

 

The transcription of his unit is odd.  The Royal Field Artillery didn't have companies, I've clipped a bit out of his record (courtesy FMP)  - others may have an idea of what the unit is 

 

Max

 

(Small thing - you mistyped his number in the text)

Yes that’s the record I’d found. Someone has suggested to me that it could be 16 Battery Command Post. I’m trying to see if I can find anything that fits in with that suggestion. I’d assumed it stood for company because of the column heading but yes you’re right the RFA didn’t have companies. It’s all a steep learning curve for me!

Thanks for pointing out the regimental number typo error in the text - I’ve corrected it.

[MaxD]

No it won't be battery command post even though the initials look as if they fit.  Invariably, with the RFA, where a specific unit is given,  it willl be a battery (bty) or a brigade (bde) or a Divisional  or Brigade Ammunition Column (DAC or BAC) all with a number

 

I could persuade myself that it is 1 Bty (battery) which was one of the batteries of 45 Brigade RFA in the 8th Division.  There is a war diary on Ancestry :https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1694_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_1694_0-00336 but the chances of finding one soldier's name are vanishingly small.  As the hospital was on the coast, where the brigade was deployed at the time of the medical record has no relevance, men would be coming from all over. 

 

India - always best not to interfere with a strongly held family story unless there is solid evidence!   That said, 45 Brigade was in India pre-war, returning to UK in November 1911 (he was 16 years of age).  They were in Leeds when war broke out and went to France in November 1914 - he was not with them, he has no 1914 or 1914/1915 Star so didn't serve in a war theatre before 1916..  Moreover, the medical record says he had 18 months at the front and he has no record of overseas service before 1916.  

 

I am not sure one can go much further with the lack of records, no consolation to know that a very large percentage of enquiries peter out like this (unless someone else knows (rather than guesses) better?).

 

Max

 

Edited 10 August , 2019 by MaxD

[charlie962]

 

Note that an earlier page what looks like Cp is in fact ep as in InBDep = Infantry Base Depot.

 

But I still cannot guess what it says.

 

Charlie

[PRC]

Am I missing something apart from a few brain cells :-)

 

The unit in the line above Martland appears to read "RFA alt WFP" which I'm taking to mean Royal Field Artillery attached WFP, (whatever that is). That is the sort of description I'd expect to see if someone is on loan rather than permanently transferred. A common theme are when men are attached at Corps \ Army \ GHQ level.

 

If you wondering how I got from "alt" to attached, look at the name on that line. There are no MiC's for a Filton serving with the Royal Field Artillery, but there is a Gunner 73757 Henry Fitton - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3487145

So it looks likely that when this clerk writes a double "tt" he doesn't cross the first "t".

 

Following that line of thinking the unit for Martland could be Royal Field Artillery attached 16 Corps. Fly in the ointment is that XVI Corps only served in Salonika.

So did the RAF have a 16 Group at this time - there would certainly have been RFA personnel attached for liaison?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 10 August , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

RFA alt WFP"

RFA attd MFP = Military Foot Police

[clk]

Hi CBond,

 

Whilst not answering you specific question, 190808 Veney RFA appears to have been called up from the Army Reserve on 18.1.1917, and posted to #2 Depot (Preston) on 19.1.1917 where presumably he was allocated his service number. Are there any surviving Absent Voters Lists for where James lived?

 

Regards

Chris

[PRC]

3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

RFA attd MFP = Military Foot Police

Agreed - much better match for the captial "M" in Martland and Mulcahy rather than the capital "W" in Wright and Walters.

 

Still emphasises the point that the unit he was attached to may not obviously have a RFA connotation.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, CBond said:

My aunt is adamant that my grandad served in India during WW1

 

3 hours ago, MaxD said:

India - always best not to interfere with a strongly held family story unless there is solid evidence!

 

Would think always worth eventually considering Post-war service as a possibility - over to other GWF pals on how to intorrogate the MoD!

[MaxD]

I had read the RFA MFP as the chap above him and the ditto marks referring only to the RFA bit.  Was there a 16 Company MFP - no war diary evident.

 

I'll have a look at post war.  Done - not on the pre 1901 dob asset listings.

His medal record has only RFA so if attached he wasn't transferred. (Same with Fitton above him)

 

Max

Edited 11 August , 2019 by MaxD
medal record

[David26]

Those more expert than me will no doubt get involved, but as far as I'm aware, six figure service numbers only started to be used in the RFA in 1916.  So, I believe that we can suggest that he was enlisted in 1916 or 1917 and was in France in August 1918.  When or how he wound up in India looks to remain a mystery.

 

David.

[CBond]

Thank you all for your help and in trying to decipher the medical record. It is very much appreciated.

The evidence is suggesting that my grandad enlisted at the beginning of 1917 - service number and the fact that he had 18 months service on his medical record. No 1915/1914 Star. 

He was in the RFA - medal card. The entry 16 Cp (or could it be Cn?) was obvious to whoever wrote it but is now proving a challenge to understand exactly what it means.

My grandad was admitted to hospital in France in 1918 and was presumably based somewhere in France at this time. No definite link to India in WW1 has yet been found.

My grandparents married in July 1923 and my father was born 2 months later - DNA links on Ancestry confirm parentage! My grandfather was definitely not serving by this time - the exact date of his discharge is not known.

I may not be able to get any further which is frustrating especially as I know so much about my other grandad’s military service - his records survived and I found him named in a war diary even though he was only a Private at the time. It describes an event for which he was awarded the Military Medal! I have huge respect for both men and what they went through - known and unknown.

Thank you again for all your help and suggestions.

[MaxD]

Doesn't really help but the man above, 73737 Gnr Fitton had been in France and Salonika with A Battery 116 Brigade RFA.  He has malaria in Salonika twice and is in 28 General Hospital  in Sep 1916 and in August 1917 (which FMP has transcribed from another man's record as self inflicted!!).  From the record of time in the service and his date to France he had been with 116 Brigade up to then.  Now in France in August 1918 not with 116 Bde as they were still in Salonika.  He was discharged on 26 Sep 1918 with a Silver War Badge.

 

I note that Fitton is credited with being with the Field Force for 1 week and he has been in the service for 4 years. The latter figure looks about right, his division began assembling in Sep 1914 and he entered France on 21 Sep 1915.  This suggests that Martland's 3 weeks (in my earlier post I wrote months - now corrected) may not mean what I and perhaps others think it means.  With Fitton, has he been returned from Salonika at some time and redeployed only recently to France (ie 1 week with the Field Force in France and Flanders) and Martland has also been somewhere else before arriving in France 3 weeks before?

 

Max

 

[PRC]

21 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Martland has also been somewhere else before arriving in France 3 weeks before?

 

Its speculation but is it not likely that he would have been at a Base Depot awaiting a posting, at which point the unit on his records \ known to the man and so given to the clerk would have been the last unit he served with. It might also be what was on his I.D. Tags - bear in mind his pneumonia may have made him slightly delirious.

 

At that point if he too came from serving at Salonika 16 Corps becomes a possibility.

 

And if he served in Salonika the "Indian" souvenirs may actually reflect service at the far end of the Mediterranean. He may well have reached Salonika via Egypt, had R&R there, or returned via there. And if those souvenirs were dropped off before he went out to France then to a young girl it may well seem that he'd been somewhere even more exotic.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

On 05/08/2019 at 11:41, CBond said:

i’d always assumed my grandad served in France until I spoke to my elderly aunt yesterday. She remembered that he had been in India because he brought back a number of souvenirs.

 

Just wondering if you had, or have seen, any of the souvenirs - are you sure they were indian?

Could they have been middle-eastern, egyptian perhaps?

 

Edit: Oops, just crossed with PRC

Edited 12 August , 2019 by Matlock1418

[CBond]

I do vaguely remember some of the souvenirs from a long time ago. They were small ornate brass cups and saucers and possibly a small matching jug. I guess Salonika or somewhere in the Middle East is a possibility for their origin. My aunt also remembers a hankie with a green scarab on it - that definitely suggests a Middle East connection but my aunt has no recollection of being told where. If only his war record had survived......

[Provost]

I can't find him in 16,000 + records for the Corps of Military Police (MMP & MFP). Many thousands of men were attached to the Corps during the war, some for a brief period, and others for months at a time. A good many men were permanently transferred (before mid 1919 given a number prefixed with a P). It looks as if your man was simply "lent" to the Corps.

 

Cheers

 

Richard