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15th (kings) Hussars


maudson
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I am wondering if anyone can help me again in research on soldiers from Ringstead in Northamptonshire. A William Meadows seems to have signed up with 3rd Northamptonshires aged 17 years 6 months in 1906 and given number 7512. In the 1911 Census the same man (it appears) is in the 15th (Kings) Hussars. Most of his records have gone but in 1915 he was wounded and had (I believe) Regimental Number 1045. This does not fit in with the numbering for 15th on armyservicenumbers website.. His original enlistment forms for the Northamptonshires are available but little else - not even a medal card that I can tie in (there is a William Meadows 6261 in the 15th who joined the RFC). Any guidance welcomed.

 

David

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54 minutes ago, maudson said:

Most of his records have gone but in 1915 he was wounded and had (I believe) Regimental Number 1045.

The Casualty List 21/6/15 (report received 3/6/15) indeed has a W Meadows, 1045, 15th Hussars, Wounded.

 

54 minutes ago, maudson said:

there is a William Meadows 6261 in the 15th who joined the RFC

who has the same next of kin as the Meadows 7512 !

 

Discharged to Commission 5/4/19. Becamle a pilot. Good detail in this file

Edited by charlie962
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55 minutes ago, maudson said:

A William Meadows seems to have signed up with 3rd Northamptonshires aged 17 years 6 months in 1906 and given number 7512. In the 1911 Census the same man (it appears) is in the 15th (Kings) Hussars. Most of his records have gone but in 1915 he was wounded and had (I believe) Regimental Number 1045. This does not fit in with the numbering for 15th on armyservicenumbers website.. His original enlistment forms for the Northamptonshires are available but little else - not even a medal card that I can tie in (there is a William Meadows 6261 in the 15th who joined the RFC).

 

Your man who joined the RFC and so the RAF was commissioned on the 19th April 1919. having been Private 6261 15th Hussars. then Corporal 357555 Royal Engineers and 319080 RAF - there are two MiCs for him that have to be cross referenced.

 

He first landed in France on the 26th January 1915. The 15th Kings Hussars had landed at Rouen on the 15th August 1914, so he didn't go out with them.

 

There are RAF Officers papers at the National Archive for a William Meadows. The Archive Discovery Catalogue states his date of birth was the 23rd October 1889. so a bit late for the age given when your man first enlisted. In the watermarked preview version it gives his permanent home address at Chobham in Surrey and shows him as ex Royal Engineers 357555.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8205603

 

Strangely I couldn't find him on the Day 1 muster Roll for the RAF with the new service number 319080. so I suspect that may be his old Royal Flying Corps number. He was found fit to be a Pilot in May 1918 according to his Officers file. There were three W. Meadows who were other ranks on Day 1 of the RAF.

The trade of 212926 who joined in 1916 was Armourer.

The trade of 34629 who joined in 1915 was Sailmaker (Rigger)

The trade of 236539 is unknown as the source I use has linked to the wrong image and there is no scroll facility.

However the records for individual airman are on FindMyPast so you may be be able to work him out by a process of elimination.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edited by PRC
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May be a red herring but the RAF Airman's record gives his subsequent address as c/o AOPC  APOC which is Anglo Persian Oil Co.

 

May be coincidental but a William Meadows was awarded the BEM Civil in 1947 

William Meadows, Driller, Anglo-Iranian Oil Company Ltd.

Edited by charlie962
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The 3rd Northamptonshire Regiment was a Militia (later Special Reserve) battalion; this would take men on a reserve basis: a certain length of training, then a liability to be called up for service with the regulars in time of war (not to be confused with the Volunteers/Territorials, who were for Home Service only). Many men who joined this type of unit did so as a sort of trial enistment: if they liked it, they'd sign on with the Regulars. Seems like you rman did, but preferred the thought of arriving at the battle on horseback than on Shanks' Pony!

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4 hours ago, charlie962 said:

AOPC which is Anglo Persian Oil Co.

Nowadays known as BP. The British Government secured a controlling interest on 22 May 1914.

 

Ron

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6 hours ago, maudson said:

A William Meadows seems to have signed up with 3rd Northamptonshires aged 17 years 6 months in 1906 and given number 7512.

 

Is this an age he gave on a form that had survived or is it one that has been calculated?

 

Reason for asking is that while he could sign up for the Militia \Volunteers \ Yeomanry, (and post 1908 the Territorials) at 17 and a half he could join not the Regular Army for any term longer than it took to reach 18 and he would have needed a parents permission. He could only make that Regular Commitment as an adult at the age of 18.

 

So depending on when that fell in 1906, if he'd then signed up for the standard 7 years in the colours and five in the reserves, he could still have been in the Army on the 1911 Census but a discharged Reservist by the time Britain declared war in August 1914. And that in turn might explain why he didn't go out with them straight away but landed in France in January 1915.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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17 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Yes. Svc Record here . Aged 17 yrs 6 mths

 

Sorry Charlie - no subscription to FindMy Past and only a free account on Ancestry. What date was the form completed?

 

Thanks,

Peter

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Many thanks to everybody for the helpful suggestions. I need to get my head around them all and work my way through it. My thought was that the RFC man was another William Meadows because of the different Regimental Number. I presumed that my man joined the 15th (and I have now found this on his record in a scribble that I missed before) and went possibly to India in 1906 when he turned 18 - but certainly went to South Africa  - returning in 1913. I have no WW1 records so far apart from the wound reports.

 

Again all the help is much appreciated.

 

David

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3 minutes ago, maudson said:

I have no WW1 records so far apart from the wound reports.

Have you read both sides of the document (RFC Airman's record) I linked in post2 above?

 

eg this detail (courtesy FindmyPast) relates to his Army Service, incl the wounding which was probably a day or 2 before his return to UK 27/5/15.

734654019_GWFMeasowsWRAFSvcextract.JPG.0d83f865ee90e9270e60b3e9a8f50b45.JPG

 

He then joined RAF 4/5/18

 

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12 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

9/4/06

So if the was 17 and a half then, he would have been 18 in October 1906. If he signed on at that point with a standard 7 and 5 term, which would still have seen him in the army at the time of 1911 Census, he could have been a reservist at the time of Britain declaring war in August 1914.

 

That in turn could explain why he wasn't with them when they moved to France.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
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Just to complicate things further he has 2 MICs. This is also him ! Served also in the RE.

812037655_GWFMeadowsWMIC2.JPG.80bc55d7741760fcb7d94a8c67828e44.JPG

 

Someone with Ancestry might check the Medal Rolls ?

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

signed up then for a 7 and 5 term

That is what is noted on his Airman's Service Record as his original attestation.

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I was just about to post an apology and eat humble pie. I was going to go through everything on Monday but I thought I would just look at the link that Charlie sent - and it obviously is the same man. I will also download the National Archives record that Steve sent. I am looking forward to trying to work it out when I get back. It looks like that he had quite a career.

Again, many thanks

David

Just a further apology. I, of course meant Peter when I put Steve.

 

David

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looking at near RE numbers:

I suspect he was compulsorily trfd on 24/11/17 to the Royal Engineers under AO 204 of 1916 like Smith 357550 and White 357556 and Wright 357553

 

A lot of that went on 'for the benefit of the Service'

 

Charlie

 

Edit (Sunday)

I think you will find that he was trf'd and posted to the 4th Field Survey Company, RE (as were the others with near RE Service numbers) in Nov 1917 and then trf'd to the RAF in May 1918. This fits with the reorganisation within the 4th Field Survey Co that is described in the unit history [here].

 

He may well have quallified as a signaller or some such whilst with the Hussars ?

 

Anyway there is a suprising amount of his career than can be filled in with the paperwork of his that survives and looking at service of others with similar numbers.. The RAF Officer's Service file that Peter linked above may also be illuminating.

 

You have a lot of work for Monday. Happy researching and do let us know what you find.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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I have had a chance to look through the various documents etc but am still not able to produce a career line for William meadows. According to the Ringstead Roll of Honour drawn up at the end of the war he was in the 15th Hussars and had been wounded and demobilised.. We know from his Attestation Forms to join 3rd Northamptonshires in 1906 that in the same year he transferred to the 15th. There are wounded reports for May/June 1915 for a William Meadows of the 15th with Regimental Number 1045. The Medal Card has him entering France on 26th June 1915 with the 15th but with number 6261. The later transfers to RE and then to RFC/RAF etc are linked back to Ringstead so seem correct as does the link-up with British Iranian, Sir Charles Walpole etc.

The problem really is to tie the two halves together. Is the 1045 man the same as the 6261 man and if so how and when did he change number? Did his term finish and he re-enlist? Perhaps the Medal card which I know are sometimes incorrect has missed off the earlier number.

Unfortunately I will not have much time over the next fortnight so perhaps – like when I do a crossword – the time away will suddenly produce the answer. I will report back but it may be a little while.

David

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I think 6261 fits with a 1906 enlistment in 15th Hussars but the numbering system changed that year and I'm not at all familiar with its workings. Peter pointed out how he would still be in the Reserve when war started so would be recalled, still with his old number.

 

So the odd man out at the moment is the Casualty List report for 1045. Hummm.

 

Could he have completed his 12 years and be allowed to leave. Then a while later he rejoins and is issued with a new number ??

 

Ah- there is a Hospital Admissions 1915 for 1045 Meadows. He is W Meadows of the 6th (edit see below, sb 15th)  Hussars, GSW back, 25/5/15 No3 CCS. To no5 Ambulance Train same day.

 

What do you think now ?

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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Hi Charlie

 

The transcriptions on forces-war-records have 15th not 6th so I think this is the error. If we discount the 1045 wound reports then the rest begins to make more sense. I am away for a time but look forward to having another go when I return. Once again many thanks.

 

Best Wishes

 

David

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13 minutes ago, maudson said:

The transcriptions on forces-war-records have 15th not 6th so I think this is the error. If we discount the 1045

Whilst my initial view is to say 1045 of the 6th Hussars is a different Meadows, I find no other record other than the Casualty List entry for such a soldier. I had always assumed that the Service Number for Hussars was issued at Corps level rather than changing with each Regiment but ??

Charlie

 

I've double checked, magnified the image, put on my glasses and now see it is indeed 15th hussars !! Sorry

 

1854863630_GWFMeadowsWHospAdmit.JPG.91b7634a5e322af25ad8534446d11981.JPG

Edited by charlie962
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1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

 

I've double checked, magnified the image, put on my glasses and now see it is indeed 15th hussars !! Sorry

 

1854863630_GWFMeadowsWHospAdmit.JPG.91b7634a5e322af25ad8534446d11981.JPG

 

In which case how do you reconcile the 5 in "1045" with the 5 in 15th?

 

And if we start picking apart the handwriting, (quite reasonably) couldn't that be 1645 - and we are looking for a Hussar who started out as 6241.

 

I did a little exercise last year looking at men recorded boarding an Ambulance Train in France over a 10 day period in January 1917 - a relatively quiet period - and 7% of the names & service numbers could not be identified. It was as low as that because I did a lot of time searching phonetically and by wildcard searches based on leading numbers and the most common transcription errors, otherwise it would have been over 20% or 1 in 5.

 

Don't put all the blame on sloppy record keeping by the RAMC medical clerks - you may have a badly injured GSW victim, doped out of his mind on pain relief and speaking in a regional accent, it may be dark, his injuries may have made his ID disc unreadable or lost, none of his mates are with him, the tag from any earlier medical assessment has been lost or disfigured and it's fairly clear this guy needs to be moved on asap once stabilised and there are more coming in. The clerk isn't likely to get a second chance.

 

I'm not saying that has to be what happened here, just postulating that it doesn't automatically make them two different people. There may be other clues on the same page that give an indication as to how accurate \ rushed this particular clerk was.

 

Just to give one example pertinent to this man - Ancestry has transcribed his MiC as 15th Hussars, the National Archive has catalogued the same document as 16th Hussars. Looking at the images on both sites, both are believeable - you only question the NA one once other information becomes available.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited by PRC
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For what it's worth, there wasn't a 6th Hussars or a 16th Hussars. The 6th were either Dragoon Guards (the Caribiniers), or the 6th Dragoons (Inniskillings), and the 16th (there was only one cavalry regiment by that number) were Lancers.

 

I am not sure how it worked, but in the period before conscription (so up to 1916 presumably) a an who was 'time expired' (ie had come to the end of his period of enlistment) could take discharge, I believe, so whether he left and then re-joined (or was conscripted)

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4 hours ago, PRC said:

In which case how do you reconcile the 5 in "1045" with the 5 in 15th?

Thankyou Peter. It could even read 13 Hussars. But I didn't find another W Meadows of the Hussars (other than our man of the 15th). Given my inability to read this number perhaps someone would double check please. ?

Charlie

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All

Many thanks for all your help. I have posted the finished brief biography of William on my Ringstead People squarespace website. It is about 4000 words so too big to post here. The website is non-commercial, - no ads etc but I will e-mail a copy if you prefer. I still am concerned that I have got things right with his army and RAF career so any corrections, suggestions very welcome.

I hope that I have used your information well.

David

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