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Remembered Today:

Edward Charvill


Suzanne Rideout
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Edward Charvill was my Great Grandfather. He was born 4th November 1896 in Nether Heyford Northamptonshire.

I have very little information on him. His Reg No was 9336 RHA 2nd Battlion Prince of Wales.

 

He received the 1914 Star medal. He was one of the lucky ones who survived the war. He went on to marry Alice Elizabeth Clarke in 1920,  they had 8 children but 2 died in childbirth.

He never spoke of the war or his experiences, he was a true horse whisperer and stableman in his younger years.

 

It would be nice to know more of his war life if anybody can help.

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Suzanne

 

I think there is a little mix up here of two men.  9336 of 2nd Battalion (POW)  West Yorks spells his name Charville with an e and was Ernest

 

There is an Edward Charvill (without e) who served in the RHA - he has the 1914/1915 Star.

 

Can you say which one is yours?

 

Max

 

 

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Max,

 

Sometimes on records there is an E on the end of Charvill other times without. His name was definately Edward known as Ted. Definitely in RHA

 

:(

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Then he is 105849 Driver Edward Charvill, the 9336 man is another man entirely.

 

Unfortunately, only his medal records, 1914/1915 Star, (not 1914 Star)  British War and Victory medals survive.Some 60% or so of Great War records were lost in WW2 to bombing and fire.  He went to France on 7 December 1915.

 

An initial look at other RHA men who went on the same date suggest he served, at least initially, with P Battery RHA. That was a training battery in UK which looks as if he was in a draft that, on arrival, went in different directions.  The first two I've looked at did just that so it would be foolish to say where he went after arrival unless any other info pops up.

 

As a driver his prime responsibility was with the horses which may have set him off to his later job.

 

Max

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The birth of an Edward Garratt Charvill was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Northampton District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1896.

 

The Northampton Civil Registration District included the Civil Parish of Nether Heyford.

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/northampton.html

 

By the time Edward Garratt Charvill died in the Northampton District in the July to September quarter of 1983, the quarterly index of death records for England and Wales issued by the General Registrars Office included the date of birth. This shows him as born 4th November 1896.

 

There is no obvious online baptism record I could find.

 

I won’t delve too much into the census details. He is on the 1901 Census at Nether Heyford as the 4 year old Edward G, but with the surname transcribed as Chervil, (and I have to say that is what it looks like on the original document!). He was still there as the 14 year old Farm Labourer Edward Charvell in 1911.

 

It was British Law not to recruit on adult terms until the volunteer turned 18 and not to send him overseas until he was 19. People did of course lie, but assuming he didn’t, the earliest he could have enlisted was the 4th November 1914 and the earliest he could have gone overseas was the 4th November 1915. As the cut off date for qualifying for the 1914 Star, (sometimes known as the “Mons Star”), was the 1st November 1914, this was not the medal he received.

 

In fact his Medal Index Card shows that the first entered a Theatre of War, France, on the 7th December 1915. The medal he qualified for was the 1914/15 Star.

 

Max has covered the most likely initial unit.

 

He doesn't appear to have married until the 1920's, which rules out marriage and childrens birth certificates as a way of identifying the units he served with. There may be some mileage in checking for the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters lists.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo and add marriage
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He has an entry in National Roll for the Great War, . Such entries must not be taken as Gospel but are very useful when all else has gone.

 

E. G CHARVILL, Driver RHA. Volunteering in August 1915, he proceeded to France later in the same year and fought at Loos, Albert, Armentieres, the Somme, Arras, St. Quentin, Ypres and Cambrai. He also served in the Retreat and Advance of 1918. He returned home and was demobilised in March 1919, holding the 1914-15 Star, and the General Service and Victory Medals. Lower Heyford, Weedon, Northants.

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie962
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Interestingly there is another Charvill killed. A relation ? His brother, your Great Great Uncle.

 

H. G CHARVILL Sgt, RFA.   A serving soldier at the outbreak of war, he was at once drafted to France. He fought in the Retreat from Mons and at Ypres, Neuve Chapelle, Loos, the Somme, Albert, St. Quentin and Cambrai, and was wounded. He was unfortunately killed in action on August 22nd, 1918, and was entitled to the Mons Star, and the General Service and Victory Medals. " The path of duty was the way to glory." Lower Heyford, Weedon, Northants.

 

Charlie

 

Edit- Harry G above would be no 71622

Northampton Newspaper: "Charvill, Serjt. H., 71622. "C" Bty. 82nd Bde. Royal Field Artillery. Killed in action 22nd Aug., 1918. Age 24. Son of Kate Amy Garratt and Harry Garratt (stepfather), of Lower Heyford, Weedon, Northamptonshire II. B. 7.". Northampton Herald 08.01.1915:

 

CasualtyList 1915 :

H Charvill

Wounded

Rank   Driver

Service Number   71622

Regiment   Royal Field Artillery

Daily List Date     25th January 1915

Report Received Date    2nd December 1914

 

EditEdit:

 

Hospital Admission on Findmypast:

No3 Casualty Clearing Station, admitted 30/10/14 Gunshotwound Leg Right,; to sick convoy to Base 31/10/15.14 (corrected my error)

Driver H Charvill , 25th Battery RFA

 

25th Bty RFA was part of 35 Brigade RFA (7th Division) which is what is noted on his Medal Index Card as the unit for his 1914 Star. He went to France 6/10/14 and has the Clasp/rosette entitlement for his 1914 Star.

I note that another man from same unit (25th Bty RFA) followed same path that day, Dvr Bradshaw,A 71553

 

Someone will no doubt come up with War Diary links for his first and last batteries, which may enable you to trace his career although there could be gaps. Not obvious when he changed from 25 Bty but it could be following his wounding.

 

 

Edited by charlie962
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Working backwards.  The war diary for 82 Brigade is singularly unhelpful and records no casualties on 22 August 1918.  Indeed the diary does not seem to have recorded casualties at all which, is not uncommon.

However, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/43374/charvill,-harry/  has a concentration sheet (scroll down the page) .  This indicates that he was he was initially buried elsewhere and moved after the war to the cemetery in which he now lies.  The diary has the map reference of where C Battery was on 22 August and the concentration sheet has the initial burial place which in all probability was Heilly British cemetery No 2 (one of the cemeteries from which men were later brought in).  This is some 7000 yards to the west of the gun position.  The CWGC site notes that No 20 Casualty Clearing Station was at Heilly in August/September 1918.  In addition, the brigade headquarters had been at Heilly up to 8th August.  The concentration sheet records a number of RFA deaths on the same date and it may be that he had moved from C Battery 82 Brigade and the move had not caught up with his documents.  I'll have  look at that perhaps.

A map showing the relative positions is here:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=13&lat=49.9243&lon=2.6076&layers=101465314&right=BingHyb

Heilly is top left, his battery was on the eastern side of Morlancourt over to the east.

 

More later

 

Max

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2 hours ago, MaxD said:

Working backwards.  The war diary for 82 Brigade is singularly unhelpful and records no casualties on 22 August 1918.  Indeed the diary does not seem to have recorded casualties at all which, is not uncommon.

However, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/43374/charvill,-harry/  has a concentration sheet (scroll down the page) .  This indicates that he was he was initially buried elsewhere and moved after the war to the cemetery in which he now lies.  The diary has the map reference of where C Battery was on 22 August and the concentration sheet has the initial burial place which in all probability was Heilly British cemetery No 2 (one of the cemeteries from which men were later brought in).  This is some 7000 yards to the west of the gun position.  The CWGC site notes that No 20 Casualty Clearing Station was at Heilly in August/September 1918.  In addition, the brigade headquarters had been at Heilly up to 8th August.  The concentration sheet records a number of RFA deaths on the same date and it may be that he had moved from C Battery 82 Brigade and the move had not caught up with his documents.  I'll have  look at that perhaps.

 

 

The Concentration report shows that Sergeant 71622 C.H. Arvill who died on the 22nd August 1918 was the “first” person recovered from map reference 62d.J.1.c.4.4.  However the five entries above are also Royal Field Artillery men who died on the 22nd August 1918 and they are shown as recovered from the same map reference. Four are shown with the unit B/150.

All were in marked graves.

 

Looking at the CWGC entry for those individuals they are shown as “B” Battery of 150th Brigade, which I understand was an Army Field Artillery Unit.

 

Could this man have been transferred to that Battery, or been involved in liaison or supplying ammunition from a shared dump and so his fate might be covered in the War Diary for that unit.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Pete

 

That is exactly what I was tentatively suggesting.  However, while the diary of 150 Brigade is also little help, the diary of HQRA 47 Div, to which 150 Brigade was allocated at that time holds the clue.  82 Brigade was also allocated to 47 DA.  The HQRA diary shows the locations of the batteries but, importantly, the locations of the wagon lines.   While the guns were well forward of Heilly in the area of Morlancourt, the wagon lines of both 82 Brigade and 150 Brigade were within 2000 yards of Heilly in the area of J 14.  Gunner Blow whose battery is not on the concentration sheet was C Battery 82 Brigade.  While the evidence is not direct, it seems likely that Sergeant Charvill and Gunner Blow were both away from their gun positions at or near the wagon lines*, hence their burial initially at Heilly along with comrades from 150 Brigade.  Although the HQRA 47 Div diary notes casualties it doesn't give batteries.

 

Suzanne.  All this "artillery mumbo-jumbo" was in the hope of establishing exactly where Harry Charvill was killed.  War diaries almost never give chapter and verse and the clues don't always add up but at least you know where he was fist buried, perhaps why he was not with his gun battery and where he now lies at peace.

More later

 

Max

 

* The wagon lines were where the horses (about 100 of them) and wagons of the battery were kept, in a position away from the guns.

 

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The  war diary for 35 Brigade that he was serving with when he went to France and when wounded in Oct 1914 is here:

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2712_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_1643_0-00305

 

The HQRA diary records on 30/31 October 1914 - "Fighting was so continuous and heavy for the next few days as to render it impossible to write up the diary from day to day"  The batteries of the brigade moved constantly along the line of the Ypres-Menin road with positions running in a more or less straight line across the middle of the map at:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/swipe/#zoom=14&lat=50.8481&lon=2.9734&layers=101464900&right=BingHyb

 

The Casualty Clearing Station where he was treated was about 20 miles to the west at Hazebrouck.which suggest he may have been wounded a day or two before the 30th, allowing time to be taken down the medical chain.

 

Just noticed something I missed.  When he started in the RFA his rank was Driver which means his main occupation was with the horses of the battery rather than the guns.  He later became a Sergeant but assuming he remained with the horses, the wagon lines were where you'd expect to find him in 1918 when he was killed..

 

Max

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On 27/07/2019 at 10:29, MaxD said:

Working backwards.  The war diary for 82 Brigade is singularly unhelpful and records no casualties on 22 August 1918.  Indeed the diary does not seem to have recorded casualties at all which, is not uncommon.

However, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/43374/charvill,-harry/  has a concentration sheet (scroll down the page) .  This indicates that he was he was initially buried elsewhere and moved after the war to the cemetery in which he now lies.  The diary has the map reference of where C Battery was on 22 August and the concentration sheet has the initial burial place which in all probability was Heilly British cemetery No 2 (one of the cemeteries from which men were later brought in).  This is some 7000 yards to the west of the gun position.  The CWGC site notes that No 20 Casualty Clearing Station was at Heilly in August/September 1918.  In addition, the brigade headquarters had been at Heilly up to 8th August.  The concentration sheet records a number of RFA deaths on the same date and it may be that he had moved from C Battery 82 Brigade and the move had not caught up with his documents.  I'll have  look at that perhaps.

A map showing the relative positions is here:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=13&lat=49.9243&lon=2.6076&layers=101465314&right=BingHyb

Heilly is top left, his battery was on the eastern side of Morlancourt over to the east.

 

More later

 

Max

Incredible amount of information. Thanks to MaxD, Charlie962 and PRC I am amazed how much you have all found out. Thank you.

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