2nd Lt Alfred Ellis White

[OLD ROBIN HOOD]

Greetings from the slightly damp forest of Sherwood.

I am researching 2nd Lt  Alfred Ellis White Yorkshire L.I.  I  have his attestation papers when he enlisted in the H.A.C. 18/11/ 1915 but doesn't seem to have been

mobilised until 27/7/17, with the rank of Private. His number was 11245. His medal roll stares that he served overseas  from 9/12/17 to 22/8/18.

In the London Gazette 22/7/19 he is commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant from 17/3/19.  

After that he  vanishes from view.

Before joining up he was a Railway Clerk from Leeds.

So if any of you good folk know anything more of him I would be most grateful.   

 

                                                              Old Robin Hood

[Mark1959]

Alfred Ellis White of 46 Moor Grange View, West Park Headingley, Leeds died 10/6/1939. Probate to widow Gertrude. Gertrude is the name on the servive papers. Baptism looks to be 16/11/1884 so 54 probably.

[The Inspector]

Hi All

A bit more family info.

 One Alfred E White was buried on 24.6.1939, Islington, London.? although the death cert. is no doubt this one 2nd qtr 1939 b.abt 1885 54 yrs, Leeds, 9b, 342. 

His son Donald Ellis White, b. 29.8.1915, 1939  register living with his mother Gertrude @ 46 Moor Grange View, a widow (b.27.2.1885)  was killed on 15th Nov, 1944. Cpl. in RE  20th Fd.Co.  2019336.....Roll of Honour 1939-45 has his number as 2109336. Photo of grave and CWGC is 2019336. No family shown on CWGC

Regards Barry

Edited 20 July , 2019 by The Inspector

[Mark1959]

Early 1920 electoral rolls show him resident in Leeds and indicates no longer serving. Traced him and Gertrude on electoral rolls in Leeds until at least 1931.

He appears in the HAC register available on FMP. Adds nothing to what we already know.

Edited 20 July , 2019 by Mark1959

[OLD ROBIN HOOD]

Greetings Mark & Barry

Many thanks for the information. Every piece helps to make up a bigger picture.

 

                                              Robin

[PRC]

The birth of an Alfred Ellis White was recorded in the Leeds District in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1884. This is the only match in England and Wales.

 

On the 1911 Census of England and Wales the 26 year old Alfred Ellis White, single and a Clerk for the North Eastern Railway Company, born Crossgates, Yorkshire was recorded living at Lyndhurst, The Orchards, Crossgates, Leeds. This was the household of his parents James Richard and Emma. The couple have had 8 children, all then still alive.

 

The marriage of an Alfred E. White to a Gertrude Simpson was recorded in the Leeds District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1914.

 

The enlistment date of the 18th November 1915 looks very much like a Derby Scheme man. So one day in the colours and then discharged to the Army Reserve to await mobilisation.

 

I can’t see him as being in a reserved occupation, although his employer may have put in an appeal, particularly if most if not all the other young(ish) men in his role had already gone. That in part will depend on what type of clerk he was.

 

Possible children of the couple:-

The birth of a Donald E. White, mothers’ maiden name Simpson, was registered in the Leeds District in Q4 1915.

 

The birth of a Gertrude M.B. White, mothers’ maiden name Simpson, was registered in the Leeds District in Q3 1920. (If she is his daughter then the birth certificate would give a good indication of whether he was in or out of the Army at that point in his life)

 

The birth of a Monica E. S. White, mothers’ maiden name Simpson, was registered in the Leeds District in Q4 1921.

 

The contact address on his Medal Index Card is “Thirlmere”, 140 Aucthorpe Road, Cross Gates, Leeds.

 

I’v never seen it confirmed anywhere but I always thought seniority and commission was backdated to the start of the training course if the course was successfully completed. In which case there is a gap between August 1918 and March 1919 unaccounted for. It’s most likely he was either wounded or ill and was medically evacuated back to the UK, but a check of the War Diary for the relevant HAC Battalion for August 1918 might rule those out if it shows him, (or an unnamed individual), being sent to the UK for the officer course.

 

I couldn’t find him at all as A E White in the second, third and fourth quarter Army Lists for 1919, so I suspect he never moved to take up his commission with the KOYLI \ no obvious mention of him in the London Gazette as resigning his commission.

 

According to the 1939 Probate Calendar, Alfred Ellis White of 46 Moor Grange-view, Headingley, Leeds, died on the 10 June 1939.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=White&yearOfDeath=1939&page=2#calendar

 

Hope that helps,

 

Peter

[OLD ROBIN HOOD]

Greetings Peter

I am impressed, more information than I expected. I am most grateful. Many many thanks

                                                Robin.

[LizLou]

Fascinating stuff! I am the current resident of 46 Moor Grange View and am just doing a bit of research about the house and its previous residents. I understand Alfred and Gertrude bought the property in Oct 1931 (the first residents of the house) and Gertrude sold it in Aug 1953, a couple of years before her death. So sad that she lost Alfred and then Donald so prematurely. 

A document dated 1953 refers to Alfred as a Railway Inspector, and gives a second address for Gertrude (widow) as 12 Gainsborough Drive, Adel, Leeds.

I think the address you mentioned may have a typo, it may in fact be 140 Austhorpe Road, Crossgates, Leeds.

Thank you for filling in so many gaps for me! My children particularly like finding out the names of previous children who lived here.

[PRC]

Hi @LizLou and welcome to the forum

There is certainly much here to fascinate

15 hours ago, LizLou said:

I think the address you mentioned may have a typo, it may in fact be 140 Austhorpe Road, Crossgates, Leeds.

Probably my dodgy eyesight. Here’s the document being referred to.

Image courtesy Ancestry

15 hours ago, LizLou said:

My children particularly like finding out the names of previous children who lived here.

As to the names of the children, Donald Ellis White, (born Q4 1915) we sadly know from his death in WW2.

It doesn’t look like Gertrude M.B. White, (born Q3 1920)  married until the October to December quarter, (Q4) of 1950, when her husband was a John J. Sumerling in the Leeds District.  It looks like the couple had two children of their own. The death of a Gertrude Mary B. Sumerling, born 12th June 1920, was recorded in the Leeds District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1989. The 1989 Probate Calendar records that a Gertrude Mary Barbara Sumerling, of 4, North Grange News, Headingley,  Leeds, died on the 22nd June 1989.

Monica E S White, (born Q4 1921) married a Gerald  A T Scutt in the Leeds District in Q3 1946. There are a number of children registered subsequently with the surname Scutt, mothers’ maiden name White, but none are in Yorkshire. The death of a Monica Emmie S Scutt, born 10th November 1921, was registered in the Truro District of Conwall in Q4 2004. The 2004 UK Probate Calendar records the death of a Monica Emmie Simpson Scutt on the 29th September 2004.

And if you haven’t  seen it, here if what the 1939 Register entry for 46 Moor Grange  looks like – or rather the bit the Government has agreed to release.

Image courtesy FindMyPast.

It was taken on the 29th September 1939 as a mini-census, although with the emphasis on collecting the information needed to run a modern war. So relationships between members of the household are not shown. And because of the way the document came into the public domain, records for those individuals not known to have died by 1992 and still under 100 when the document was released in 2011, are shown as officially closed.

The 1939 Register as well as providing data on the civilian population, (existing servicemen, reservists, territorials, etc had been mobilised and were at their war station, so outside the scope of the exercise), would go on to be used to control the issue of ID Cards and ration books.

Some individuals who had Civil Defence duties or occupations that required them to travel around the country needed special ID cards to reflect this. Which takes us to the members of the household.

The widow Gertrude White also did Ambulance Work for the ARP.

Her daughter Gertrude, a Shorthand Typist by day, also worked for the ARP at a First Aid Post and as part of the Communication Service. Reflecting it’s subsequent role as the registry for the NHS, Gertrudes’ surname is changed to Sumerling. The amendment  is initialled and dated 2.11.50.

The third entry, although officially closed, is almost certainly Monica.

The fourth entry is Donald, an Insurance Inspector for a Traffic Company by day, but prior to joining the Royal Engineers, he was also a Messenger for the ARP.

The fifth was an elderly widow Elizabeth B Coates.

Hope that is of interest,
Peter

Edited 10 September , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[LizLou]

Hi Peter, 

Wow, thank you so much!! I was stunned to see this immediate reply.  Did you already have all that info to hand? Amazing! I'm so grateful. I didn't know about the 1939 Register, I've just lost hours browsing it. 

(You're right it does look more like a 'c' in Austhorpe/Aucthorpe.)

Are you connected with the White family, or interested in a particular regiment or similar? Or the history of this period in general?

Liz

[PRC]

5 hours ago, LizLou said:

Are you connected with the White family, or interested in a particular regiment or similar? Or the history of this period in general?

Hi Liz,

Sorry no connection to the White family, (that I'm aware of!), or the area. My interest is genealogy and I came to the forum a few years back to get help with finding out about the war service of my own family tree members, and what I found was so 'fascinating' that I've hung around and tried to pay back some of the help I received. My paternal line has strong links to a number of Norfolk families, (father was one of 14, a large family tradition that seems to go back to at least the 1700's), and so service with the Norfolk Regiment crops up frequently.

Yes I'm a history nerd and I like to see what the documents can tell us - not just the in your face information but the bits that can be teased out.

5 hours ago, LizLou said:

You're right it does look more like a 'c' in Austhorpe/Aucthorpe

That's probably the army records office clerks interpretation of someone elses handwriting - something else to bear in mind when you start losing yourself in these old records

Anyway, better end it there as we are in danger of straying far from the OP, dealing with issues outside the timeframe of the forum and getting too focused on the genealogy stuff - which can lead to unhappy admins

All the best,
Peter

[LizLou]

Thanks again, Peter. Keep up the great work!