The two "Sailors of the Great War" graves in St Helenas Chuch, Kilnsea

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Hello All, I have visited the two graves in the churchyard at Kilnsea, East Yorkshire on a number of occasions. the headstones list them as "Sailors of the Great War"  both give the same day of death, same year.  I cannot find much info on them, one website states that they were merchant seamen, if anyone has any more info on these two lads it would be appreciated. Thanks  Ian.

[PRC]

It's very unlikely to be the date of death but the date they were either washed up or recovered from the sea. While it's likely they came from the same ship, that can't be taken from granted. Given the tides in the North Sea they could have come from anywhere and been of any nationality. It certainly looks like neither the civil authorities or the naval ones could find enough information at the time to even begin to make an identification - an unknown British Merchant Seaman or a French one of a Norwegian or a Dutch, German, etc, etc.

 

To give one small example of tides, a five man crew of a Wellington ditched off the coast of Lincolnshire in WW2 and were seen by members of the squardon on the wing trying to inflate the raft. The observers were adamant all five were alive. One of the bodies subsequently washed up within a day in Lincolnshire, one a week or so later near Sheringham in Norfolk and the third in Holland. The other two were never (knowingly) found. Unless the observers were wrong and the third man baled out. then he was carried there by the tide.

 

As you have a date you might want to check out the local newspapers for that period - quite often the discovery as well as the subsequent coroners inquest will be reported, with both being used as a chance to circulate any description that was available and from that you'll see what the authorities had available to them to try to establish an identity.

 

Unfortunately there is no single database that would allow you to narrow the search for identification by hair colour, height, approximate age and most likely nationality of the ship he would have been sailing in. (Newspaper reports I've seen have included statements like "dressed in the style of a Dutch sailor" even when no makers tags survived).

 

Good luck with your search,

 

Peter

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Thanks Peter, Good advice! I have some time off shortly so will do some trawling, Ian

 

[Malcolm12hl]

The CWGC simply describes them as two unidentified merchant seamen buried in February 1916.

[Hyacinth1326]

I see from my notes that UC-7 was active mining these waters in 1916 and she claimed more than one Auxiliary Patrol trawler.  I will see if any fit the date.

SS Dido is also a reasonable candidate mined 26 February 1916. 27 lost also speculation about a stowaway.  

Edited 20 July , 2019 by Hyacinth1326

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

19 minutes ago, Malcolm12hl said:

The CWGC simply describes them as two unidentified merchant seamen buried in February 1916.

Malcolm-my memory is coming back, I am sure it was the 21st

6 minutes ago, Hyacinth1326 said:

I see from my notes that UC-7 was active mining these waters in 1916 and she claimed more than one Auxiliary Patrol trawler.  I will see if any fit the date.

SS Dido is also a reasonable candidate mined 26 February 1916. 27 lost also speculation about a stowaway.

Thanks Hyacinth

[Hyacinth1326]

It should be straightforward to narrow down the candidates but of course nothing can be proved.  UC-7 certainly laid the mines which sank Dido many bodies were not recovered and are remembered at Tower Hill.

[Hyacinth1326]

AMT Courtier mined on 6.1.16 by UC-6 is another good candidate with several missing bodies. Courtier was mined off Easington. If the date is the 21st I think a plausible case could be made for this vessel.  Here is a list of the dead.  Reads like all hands to me.  I should add that Courtier's known track places her well inshore in the War Channel.

 

1. ASH , Second Hand (no. 1388/SA), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †11/01/1916, Memorial: Brixham (St. Mary) Churchyard

2. BARBER, JOHN HENRY (45), Petty Officer 1st Class (no. 136982), HMT Courtier, Royal Navy, †06/01/1916, Husband of Catherine Maud Barber, of 3, The Ridge, Kessingland Beach, Lowestoft, Memorial: Portsmouth Naval Memorial

3. BLEACH, JAMES , Deck Hand (no. 2892DA), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memoria

l 4. BLISSETT, SAMUEL (53), Skipper, HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Husband of Jane Annie Blissett, of 52, Elleston St., New Cleethorpes, Grimsby. Born in London, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial

 5. DIXON, WILLIAM , Trimmer (no. 1041TS), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial

6. EDLAND, GEORGE WILLIAM (36), Trimmer Cook (no. 100TC), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Husband of Frances Edland, of 56, Lord St., Grimsby, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial 7. LINGARD, HARRY WILLIAM , Engineman (no. 1584ES), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial

8. MEACHEN, EDGAR ALONZO , Engineman (no. 874ES), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial

 9. NEEVE, HENRY JAMES , Deck Hand (no. 2585DA), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial

10. PEARCE, GEORGE FREDERICK (24), Deck Hand (no. 3172DA), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Son of William and Jessie Pearce, of Chelsea, London, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial

11. ROBINSON, JOSEPH , Deck Hand (no. 5828DA), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Memorial: Chatham Naval Memorial

12. SULLIVAN, DANIEL , Trimmer (no. 4577/TS), HMT Courtier, Royal Naval Reserve, †06/01/1916, Memorial: Grimsby (Scartho Road) Cemetery

Edited 24 July , 2019 by Hyacinth1326

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Thanks again Hyacinth, you have put it in simple laymans terms which is ideal for me. Ian.

[PRC]

There really are just too many to choose from - and thats assuming they were British Royal Navy \ RNR \ RNVR - that I go back to my original suggestion. Look at the information given when the bodies were found and what was thrown up by the coroners inquest.

 

I've just looked at the Naval History website for the Royal Navy fatalities from the 1st February 1916 - and bear in mind that's entirely arbitrary, the bodies buried at Kilnsea could have been in the water for months and come from any other nation that had boats or aircraft in the North Sea.

 

Every day on that website has at least 1 and quite often 2 or more men simply recorded as drowned. After the first six I stopped looking at CWGC - they were all on the Plymouth or Chatham Naval Memorial.

http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1916-02Feb.htm

Of course it will be possible to prove that some of those men were nowhere near the North Sea and so can be discounted or died too far away and too near the date of the discovery of the body for it to be plausible that they had been carried ashore near Kilnsea by the tide in the time available. But thats not the point - they can't all be eliminated and you have no earliest date to cut off your potential pool.

 

It's only a presumption that they came from the same ship and even that they were found at the same location. Certainly in Norfolk the coroners inquests for bodies washed ashore was carried out by the Coroner for the Duchy of Lancaster, not the local coroner, (although sometimes they could be one and the same person, just being paid by a different employer). I've come accross instances where bodies held for enquiries to be made and the coroner to travel have been held in a mortuary and then there has been one sitting for what could be several unrelated deaths from different locations.

 

However, if we accept the premise that the two men were found together and came from the same ship and were Royal Navy man, that still leaves three potential incidents.

 

10th February 1916. Arabis, fleet sweeping sloop, sunk by German Destroyers in the North Sea. 54 dead, rest PoWs.

11th February 1916. Arethusa, light cruiser mined and sunk in the North Sea. 12 dead.

15th February 1616. RNAS Short Tractor biplane on patrol from Great Yarmouth over the North Sea missing. 2 dead.

 

I've not checked to see if they all have no known grave, but even if they do there might still be some mileage in trying to discover where their bodies were washed ashore or recovered from the sea to give some idea of how the tides were flowing from any known place of loss.

 

But I genuinely wish you good luck with your search. I really do hope it's possible to identify these two.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Hyacinth1326]

Arabis was lost in 54 42 31 N 03 11 76   I make that well to the East of the Dogger Bank

 

Arethusa was mined by UC-7 off Felixstowe

 

if this helps

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

Could be an interesting time off work!!

[Guest]

Looking for some help from our very knowledgeable members or a point in the right direction. There are two CWGC headstones in Kilnsea St.Helens Churchyard,both are Sailors of the Great War DOD given as 21/12/1916. I know this is a long shot but would anybody know how they lost their lives or what the most likely cause was ? A few very experienced history researchers have had a go but none have specialist Great War knowledge. Thanks in anticipation for any assistance,this is a favour to somebody who recently came across the now overgrown cemetery and would like to help honour these unknown heroes.

[Dazscuba]

Hi I had a look at these chaps last year, looked for ships lost in the area from two weeks before to when they were buried and nothing. I also looked at sailers overboard and looked in the British Newspaper Archives and agin nothing. I then asked on here but nobody could assist in the id of the gents. 

 

Good luck and if you do find out please let us know.

When I was in the Coastguard stationed at Easington on every 11/11 we would drive down and place a wooden cross on each grave to remember the sacrifice they made.

Darren 

[PRC]

Date of death is almost certainly when the two bodies were found, so they could have been in the water for months and so drifted in from anywhere in the North Sea. They may also have come ashore, been recovered from the inshore area or brought in from further afield by fishing crew. In my experience Sailor of the Great War, usually means the Coroner couldn't even decide what Nationality they were or whether they were Arrned Forces, Merchant Marine or Fishing Crew. Obviously as the war went on you increasingly had the chance they were Air Crew to add to the mix.

 

If, as Dazcuba has just posted, there is nothing helpful on the likes of British Newspaper Archive, then you may need to check out the local County Archive to see what contemporary newspapers they have and then check those.

 

Sadly my local coastline of Norfolk saw too many of these cases in both wars so many a seaside churchyard has one or two of these headstones. Usually I find in the local press the inqiuest is opened and used as a chance to circulate a physical description of the body recovered. It's then adjourned for a week or two and if nothing further is discovered, it's closed as an unknown sailor, quite often with cause of death unknown.

 

Good luck with your search,

Peter

 

 

[Hyacinth1326]

Didn't this topic surface here ?  

 

[Guest]

Many thanks to everybody who has replied to this post. Knew it was a long shot but any bit of information is useful. Will pass on all the comments to the interested party. They do go to that part of the coastline every year and intend to call in to the cemetery and pay their respects. Therefore whoever they are they have had a visit and are not forgotten. Much appreciated to everyone.