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Joe Sheldon

The Farm

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Joe Sheldon
Posted (edited)

The map below indicates that The Farm was connected by a road running North West behind Little Table Top and Bauchops Hill along the South Spur of Arghyl Dere.

Is this an exaggeration or did an actual road exist?

I assume that the Farm Cemetery was actually constructed on the site previously occupied occupied by the farm huts.

The map indicates two buildings here around 70 yards apart.

I visited the Farm Cemetery last year and found that the thick undergrowth around the path and cemetery appeared to have been laid like a hedge, purposely to make access to the area below the cemetery very difficult without cutting through the undergrowth. Is this intentional to prevent  people walking through this area?

 

Anzac_Cove_region_topographic_battlefield_map_H.E.C._Robinson_1916_(georeferenced).jpg.d1c3f50e86c37d1263a29151773b4b8a.jpg 

 

Edited by Joe Sheldon

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Eceabat

Hi Joe,

 

I can’t comment on the track shown on the map but I can add some information about the undergrowth.

 

The area around Chunuk Bair and the Farm were planted with pine trees by Turkish authorities in the 1970s and 1980s and while some of these plantations were burnt out in a fire that swept through much of the Anzac sector in 1994, the growth along the track to the Farm cemetery was less affected. 

 

The pine plantations were not intended to keep those interested in the campaign from straying from the straight and narrow (or winding and narrow as is the case of the track to the Farm) but as was the case elsewhere in the region were planted for commercial purposes. However, once planted there was little effort made to keep the undergrowth cleared, possibly as the below Chunuk Bair was so steep. 

 

When I first visited the area in 1988, the trail to the Farm cemetery was difficult to find, so much so that I missed it and had to return to the peak of Chunuk Bair and then line myself up on the Stone of Remembrance through the trees and tumble my way down the slope. 

 

At that time there were extensive traces of the campaign, including Turkish trenches on the forward slow and lines of barbed wire, in part covered by fallen branches and pine needles (see reference to tumbling above).

 

Cheers

Bill

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michaeldr
Posted (edited)

Joe & Bill

 

Looking at the WFA's disc of Gallipoli maps, I'd say that there probably was a track, but classing it as a road is doubtful

And there was at least one farm hut there - not all refs indicate two

Here are a few examples

 

1 - as seen from HMS Talbot July 1915

696559822_FarmSketchfrmHMSTalbot6JULY1915.jpg.527769ba910cc748d9eabf199d1a9a7e.jpg

 

2 - As seen in November 1915

1171729058_TheFarmsketch3NOV1915.jpg.031d62ec9480a5f6700e0bfd1101edd9.jpg

 

3 - from a British 1/20,000 map of 1915

1545351922_TheFarmKurijaDeresheet1-20000.jpg.c241edb4e54525024b4e7d8ddbd3319a.jpg

 

4 - from a NZ map of 1919, showing the trench systems mentioned by Bill

229998250_TheFarmNZmap1919.jpg.5cbc0f657638b274d7887362a72f6a69.jpg

 

5 - Sticking my neck out here :unsure:, I think that this is the area of The Farm as seen on the Sevski Pasa map c1916

36865425_TheFarmperSevskiPasac1916.jpg.01d836515bd97e23cbaf632bd1ae2885.jpg

 

I hope that these are of interest

regards

Michael

Edited by michaeldr

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alantwo
Posted (edited)

Very, very approximately.

 

If I take Michael's Şevki Paşa map and IF my understanding to where The Farm would be is correct.

 

 

20891743_TheFarm01.jpg.45e7ff8d3fcb77e04412d8c10c5df3d6.jpg

 

Same icon on the Allied 1:20.000 map

 

1595291660_TheFarm02.jpg.69f60dc1777aa18d17b27040ca344a15.jpg

 

Without moving the icon a very approximate position on Google Earth would be.

 

236716546_TheFarm03.jpg.372e719f3c5e456cedc3409bc54d003b.jpg

 

 

3 hours ago, michaeldr said:

but classing it as a road is doubtful

 

Having visited the Peninsular for the first time, a track would be a good description for a number of roads.

 

I hope this is helpful and as I'm no expert I'd be more than happy to amend the above.

 

Alan

 

Edited by alantwo

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alantwo
Posted (edited)

Is this about right? Same icon from Northwest, today on Google Earth, albeit not quite ground level.

 

Other icons Bauchop's Hill bottom left, Chunuk Bair middle top and Rhododenron Spur middle right.

 

Alan

 

695670587_TheFarm04.jpg.9e420e3ca852c6c7a935b1c6c5b8e291.jpg

Edited by alantwo

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Joe Sheldon

Thank you all for your very interesting input.

All the maps are very useful.

Bill, I found the track easily last year, but a while before the cemetery the young trees to either side of the path appear to have been laid as one may do to thicken a hedge to keep in livestock. (or humans out!). I plan to revisit again next year and be a little better prepared with information and explore further.

Michael and Alan, using a compass on your 1-20,000 British grid map tells me you are very close with the marker on Google Earth.

This would make the original farm approximately 300 metres SSW of the Farm Cemetery entrance.  (If there is any trace of it today).

Please correct me if you disagree.

I also think a wide path or track is more likely than a road although it looks pretty good on the map!

Alan (Two)  Thank you, It makes things so much easier to understand when you can see a ground view.

Best wishes all.

Joe 

.

 

  

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alantwo

Hi Joe

 

The straight line distance from the cemetery entrance to the icon is given on Google Earth as 125m, Heading 198.98 degrees. Please bear in mind the icon I placed may be some distance out in any direction! If you do revisit the site and happen across something please take a bearing and let me know, it will be interesting to compare it with the overlay maps.

 

Alan

 

1527243060_TheFarm05.jpg.894cd8247199baaa880074908b236681.jpg

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Joe Sheldon

Hi Alan,

Thank you again.

Maths was not my best topic!

When we visit I am hoping there will be four of us, so spreading out and aiming off, first to the left and then to the right on this bearing, means if there is anything to see we should find it.

(Magnetic variation is + 5.25 degrees at Gallipoli)

 

I will update the forum once I return.

Regards,

Joe

 

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john white

Dear Members

              I have tried to find it but to no avail. There is a a black and white photo of the Farm which shows. i think, the trench that Bill is alluding to. Interesting topic

                                                          Regards

                                                                John White

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john white

Dear Members

         With reference to this topic ! have found the attached photo taken in 1915 from the Australian War memorial.Is the rectangular piece of ground the present cemetery? There is a roadway down and I remember talking to Bill about it a few years ago.

                              Regards

                                   John White

The Farm 1915.jpg

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emrezmen

An aerial photo of the entire area is luckily available at AWM archive. The track previously discussed here is also can be easily seen on it.

 

2.jpg.d4e62a97869d1dd468069bd2673ca5cd.jpg

 

Close-up:

3.jpg.260e8c5216b07bb7aadd6942b9307e6f.jpg

 

GE overlay:

1.jpg.0cf3191779c04f326ddb1ff9ed036916.jpg

 

1a.jpg.2a4ebd762a1bc90cba0f9131ede9abc9.jpg

 

A photo from NZ Nat. Army Museum archive. Note the white trench lines:

1991.587_A01_012_4804-444.jpg.b54932692015a11470accfb4181861c8.jpg

Edited by emrezmen
Addition

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john white

Dear Emrezmen

                     Great Overlays and photos. The road I spoke to Bill was further down the range before one comes to Hill 971. Sorry. However it's still interesting taking in the Rhododendron Ridge sector . When the Turks attacked on August 10th the Pinnacle was taken. Did that force divert to th right to attack the Farm or was it a separate attack? As I am sure you know not a lot is known about the battle but about a thousand men were killed on the British side. During the campaign The Apex Cemetery was built but afterwards the burials were re- interred.  I think you can probably see bodies on the Farm Plateau. One of those killed was Brigadier - General Baldwin. I think  the obvious conclusion is that the area of the farm has decreased. What about the coat belonging to the officer from the 9th Worcesters?

                                     Regards

                                            John White

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seaJane

[deleted]

Edited by seaJane
removed to correct thread

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emrezmen
11 hours ago, john white said:

Dear Emrezmen

                     Great Overlays and photos. The road I spoke to Bill was further down the range before one comes to Hill 971. Sorry. However it's still interesting taking in the Rhododendron Ridge sector .

 

Thank you. I was actually talking about the road mentioned in first post. See:

2.jpg.d4e62a97869d1dd468069bd2673ca5cd.jpg.c8d5c9c4a2e4cfe71487ccb8cae3d279.jpg

1595291660_TheFarm02.jpg.69f60dc1777aa18d17b27040ca344a15.jpg.2611c0bec3b454265b24d88a77049463.jpg

 

By the way, here is another photo. (From Stephen Chambers' book) Note the mound to the right of the tree in the middle. Clearer compared to other photo I posted.

5.jpg.50933180690df5a3c3aa365d20cd8e6c.jpg

 

11 hours ago, john white said:

When the Turks attacked on August 10th the Pinnacle was taken. Did that force divert to th right to attack the Farm or was it a separate attack?

It was definitely a separate attack in the beginning. The Farm (Saritarla or Ağıl -Aghyl- in Ottoman maps) area was directly rushed by 23rd Regiment (1st and 2nd Bns) while the 28th Regt was advancing against the Rhododendron. But the elements of 28th were diverted to that flank in order to establish a connection, and "the regiment attacked the enemy it came across", according to M. Kemal's report dated 1916.

 

I have to look into war diaries to confirm all this and to get into more detail.

 

11 hours ago, john white said:

I think you can probably see bodies on the Farm Plateau. One of those killed was Brigadier - General Baldwin. I think  the obvious conclusion is that the area of the farm has decreased. What about the coat belonging to the officer from the 9th Worcesters?

Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand this part correctly.

 

Regards,

Emre

 

Edited by emrezmen

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john white

Dear Moderator

  Does Sea Jane's contribution need to be re-allocated to the "The French at Gallipoli"

                               Regards

                                      J W

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michaeldr
49 minutes ago, john white said:

Dear Moderator

  Does Sea Jane's contribution need to be re-allocated to the "The French at Gallipoli"

                               Regards

                                      J W

 

Mods: I think that John is right

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john white

Dear Emre

              Thank you once again for your interesting contribution.

Lt- Colonel Nunn was the Commanding Officer of the 9th Worcesters and was killed on 10th August 1915. It was thought that he had been buried and in 1919 Charles Bean's party found a Worcester's raincoat This was taken as confirmation that he had been buried in the farm cemetery.

 One other thing that I noticed on one of your overlays. When the New Zealanders attacked on August 6th 1915 the first battalion to go in was Young's Auckland battalion. By the time the battalion had reached the position of the pinnacle the battalion had lost 250 out of 750 in an advance of 100 yards. Malone refused to take his battalion,the Wellingtons, forward that night but did the following morning. Talk about a killing field!

                         Regards

                                 John White

                

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seaJane
1 hour ago, john white said:

Dear Moderator

  Does Sea Jane's contribution need to be re-allocated to the "The French at Gallipoli"

                               Regards

                                      J W

 

12 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

 

Mods: I think that John is right

Quite right!

 

I was completely baffled as to why it hadn't appeared on "The French at Gallipoli" and can only assume that my cursor skidded a thread at some point. So sorry!

 

sJ

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emrezmen
10 hours ago, john white said:

Dear Emre

              Thank you once again for your interesting contribution.

Lt- Colonel Nunn was the Commanding Officer of the 9th Worcesters and was killed on 10th August 1915. It was thought that he had been buried and in 1919 Charles Bean's party found a Worcester's raincoat This was taken as confirmation that he had been buried in the farm cemetery.

This, of course, still indicates that the remains around the coat collected and buried at the Farm, and it's well possible the remains of the colonel were also buried there. It's interesting that Bean says "We searched for signs of the general [Baldwin] but could not find any", but AWM has this: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C117678

 

Ottoman war diaries are vital at this point. No doubt that some of the British dead scattered in the are was buried by Ottoman troops in the heat of August/early Sept. As I explained to another English friend some time ago, when a dead officer was found in an Ottoman-held position, then this usually would be included in reports, especially if something useful (map, diary etc.) was found on him. Nowadays lots of things happening in Turkish military archives and hopefully all researchers will be able to reach more easily to all Ottoman unit war diaries in near future. I'm sure these diaries will shed light on so many unexplained details on both sides.

 

10 hours ago, john white said:

 One other thing that I noticed on one of your overlays. When the New Zealanders attacked on August 6th 1915 the first battalion to go in was Young's Auckland battalion. By the time the battalion had reached the position of the pinnacle the battalion had lost 250 out of 750 in an advance of 100 yards. Malone refused to take his battalion,the Wellingtons, forward that night but did the following morning. Talk about a killing field!

Sad it's a little bit hard to understand the area today due to random afforestation.

 

Edited by emrezmen

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john white

Dear Emrezmen

                      Thanks for your reply I attach two photos of the Farm Cemetery in preparation and also a photo of the Apex Cemetery whose soldiers were re-interred Sadly they are not of a high quality. One point that I have not understood Why are the arrows going from left to right  when the attack had come down from the crest?

                            Regards

                                  J W

 

 

1919 photos.png

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john white

Dear Emrezmen

                      Thanks for your reply I attach two photos of the Farm Cemetery in preparation and also a photo of the Apex Cemetery whose soldiers were re-interred Sadly they are not of a high quality. One point that I have not understood Why are the arrows going from left to right  when the attack had come down from the crest?

                          Regards

                                J W

1919 photos.png

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emrezmen

Unfortunately too small photo. Still thanks for sharing. I have two HQ photos of what I thought to be the Apex Cemetery. I'm not sure. I've never seen a photo of it before.

MA_I336274_TePapa_We-buried-them-on-the_preview.jpg.bbd41c6db7519934d7585646d16b622a.jpg

25.jpg.ab54db4f6050264d9884c0478e64354f.jpg

The caption says: "We buried them on the battleground below the Apex, where they gave their lives for their honour and their country"

 

Source: https://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/object/1366687

 

Also a very detailed photo of western tip of the Farm (dated 1919). No sign of farmhouse. Cheshire and the Apex on the left.

23.jpg.7d591dfe91fcaceb46e8c48724a9fc30.jpg

 

 

12 hours ago, john white said:

One point that I have not understood Why are the arrows going from left to right  when the attack had come down from the crest?

If you're talking about red arrows on the images I posted, they're actually indicating the "lost" road below the Farm, not the direction of attacks.

 

EDIT: I just found the relatively HQ photo.  Could you please, if possible, pinpoint the exact location of the Apex Cemetery, John?

imageproxy.jpg.2d3f7c96703e7f9b63076a27c08298dd.jpg

 

 

Edited by emrezmen

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john white

Dear Editor and others

                 Thanks firstly for all new photos and also the enlargement of the three 1919 photos and the explanation of the arrows. My technical skill with the computer is in no way matched by my enthusiasm for details for the Gallipoli campaign,, but here goes. In my opinion Picture no 2 shows Rhododenron Ridge and then the Apex. To it's left about 100 yards further forward at a slightly higher level is the Pinnacle. I think that the difference is well shown in the excellent overlay by  Emrezmen.What I can't gauge is how far the cemetery is from the inner side , in other words coming towards us as the viewer. How would I do it? The distance is not very far I would say . For the record the men were re-interred  in Embarkation Cemetery after the war. but I haven't been able to determine how many. Although, quite rightly importance is given to the New Zealand casualties, many British casualties (including Welsh) were incurred.One battalion which was hammered at the Pinnacle was the 6th loyal Lancashire Regiment

     A personal, if obvious comment about the Farm. I think people don't understand is that the cemetery is part of a greater expanse i e the farm itself. I'm still looking for a great photo of the Farm area but as yet I can't trace it.....as yet!

                                 Regards

                                      John White

 By the way is that the trench that Bill mentioned in his Email shown on the Photo of the farm.

                                          J W

              

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john white

Dear Members127985096_PictureoftheFarmfromtheApex(2).jpg.3004dd0521c5a4b4275d6da58cb55406.jpg

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john white

Dear Members

            A panoramic view of the farm area which I thought was very good.

                                J W2146377407_PictureoftheFarmfromtheApex(1).jpg.5f841947b50ec3e6c15916b609662dda.jpg

Picture of the Farm from the Apex (1).jpg

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