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Remembered Today:

Queries on a Croix de Guerre Medal awarded for action April 1918


womba

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I am doing some research on my father's WWI history. The particular battle he was involved in and which interests me was, I believe, the 2nd Battle for Kemmel Hill 24-25 April 1918. He was an officer in the 24th Royal Field Artillery which was defending the French. From his memoirs (somewhat glorifying war):

 

"Was there ever a bigger thrill in anyone's life than that day in April 1918 when I was in command of the 'sacrifice battery' of field artillery at Kemmel Hill. Every man and every officer was either killed or wounded, every gun was disabled, all our infantry killed or captured, and only four of us with feeble Lewis guns and the Bosche just a few hundred yards off. That to my mind was just superb, and I could have 'gone west' that day feeling as elated as any old warrior bound for his Valhalla."

 

There is clear evidence that the French awarded the Croix de Guerre to the RFA unit, I presume the 24th Battery. The following, though, is anecdotal evidence which I would like to confirm.

 

When the medal was awarded, my father was back in England recovering from gas and injury. So the medal was received by the officer who took over the unit after the battle who was not present in the action for which the award was made. That officer spent the rest of his life with the symbol of the medal on his lapel. His brother states, on the internet, that "It opened many doors from him." The same officer also was the recipient of the British Military Cross, awarded in 1919. The only explanation I can see was that it was awarded as a British recognition of the French award.

 

He was pestered by his brother for a detailed account of the action that led to the award and he clearly dodged those questions. In spite of the background he remained a war comrade of my father and my mother described how his wife once drew her aside asking about the story of the medal because her husband would never talk about it.

 

I have copies of the war records held at Kew for both my father and the officer referred to. My father's shows that he was injured (gassed) the date of the battle, whilst the other officer was involved in various staff movements at the time. The dates of the gazetting of both medals is given in the officer's records. I have tried unsuccessfully to track down the entries in the London Gazette. But I have been advised that they will likely only show the name of the medal recipient and the date of the award, basically information I already have from his file. What I really want are official details - the unit, the battle, the dates - justifying the award.

 

My next line of enquiry will be on the French side. Does anyone have any suggestions?

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If the name of theothe officer is provided it should be possible to fing his C de G and MC. There is an annotated version of the MC gazettes at the National Archives, This usually indicates the date and location of the action for the award. I have copies of the annotated version. The C de G os a different matter these are usually just a list in the gazette without further details. Newspapers may give the reason but of course may be seen as unreliable. 

 

Edited by Mark1959
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Thanks for those responses.

 

I should declare some relevant information. I am based in Australia. Both my father and the other officer were also Australian. I suspect enlisting in the British rather than the Australian army was a class thing for both men. From my father's memoirs:

 

[My father (from Devon)] impressed on me the honour that was mine in being an officer of the British Army.
“I’d rather have you as a subaltern there than a Major in the Australian Army,” he told me. Needless to say I didn’t think the same as pay at that time was 8/6 per day,
plus a few allowances, and that of the Australian Major 35/- per day

 

So at present I can only access information online. The Kew records I have were copied by my daughter when she was in London recently. The advice given by Mark seems to require the ability to visit the National Archives.

 

Chris's post has two links which I have tried. The London Gazette link gives me a "This site can't be reached" message, presumably because I am in Australia. I think I had already tried that website before for the same result. There are other databases for the London Gazette which I tried unsuccessfully. But I was discouraged from trying further by advice from the Archives' staff that I was unlikely to get any more information from the Gazette than I already had - the medal's name, the name of the officer and the Gazette date (late 1918). I am unsure if the Gazette date is the same date as the date of the award ceremony. My best guess is that it will be a later date.

 

The other link was to 'The French Journal Officiel' which I also tried. The heading for the page I reached (translated) was: ' Official Journal of the French Republic. Laws and decrees'. The year could be specified. Searching 'Croix de Guerre' gave me entries only about the medal, not a list of awardees, consistent with the heading ' Laws and decrees' I keyed in the officer's name also and predictably drew a blank with that as well. I tried working back to the root URL but that didn't help either.

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I wondered what information you had re the award of the croix de guerre (CDG) to British units. There is a very old thread re this at this page but I couldn't find  the unit you quote (that is not to say it is not there).

 

Re the London Gazette, try https://www.thegazette.co.uk/. Then select Awards and Accreditations and towards the bottom on the left select include supplements because that will be where the notice you are looking for will be, if it is there at all.

 

The Journal Officiel is a bit cumbersome. You should search by name of the soldier (I would suggest just the surname) or unit. I have spent some time trying to find CDG notices and, as far as I can make out, it is only the higher level ones (possibly only the CDG's at Army Level) that are published in the Journal Officiel. The Wikipedia entry for CDG is quite useful to understand the different levels of the award.

 

Good Luck. Let us know how you get on.

 

David

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Thanks for that Major

 

I searched under the officer's name with two initials in quotes (the gazette uses just initials) within the 1918/19 dates. I left all the other fields clear. I had four hits which I believe were the officer I was searching for. But they related to acting appointments only and these were in the officer's file. No entries for medals.

 

Did you see the advice I received from archives staff that i would find no further information in the gazette notice than I already have from the officer's file - the medal name, the name of the awardee and the gazette date? I was told that earlier in the war the gazette gave further detail but by 1918 there was just the bare minimum. That information put me off further searching for gazette entries.

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The only Royal Field Artillery battery awarded the Croix de Guerre with Palms as a unit was 5 Field Battery for the action on 27 May 1918 at Ville aux Bois.  The battery, now 5 (Gibraltar 1779-1783) Battery Royal Artillery, part of 19 Regiment Royal Artillery stationed at Tidworth.

 

Max

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You’ve not mentioned the other officers name.......it may help.

 

MC citations, the annotated ones, are free to download. Therefore, someone could help if you cannot download them, as they’re free....... it may give you some more information....

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Paul has asked me to give the officer's name. If you read my first post you will see that my enquiries are designed to cast him in a less than favourable light. As far as I know his family is totally unaware of my version of the circumstances surrounding the medal. He is probably spoken about as the great war hero in the family. The evidence I have is from his personal army file. Is it fair for me to use it against him? And my father was prepared to accept what happened without complaint.

 

On the other hand if all the evidence was opened up, everyone could join in the search. After all it is 100 years ago. If he did live a lie, should it not be exposed? There are 5 pertinent documents from his file which I have extracted which I can upload. There is also an online tape recorded testimony from his brother, much of which I have transcribed, which I can direct forum members to.

 

I am looking for some wise counsel from those with greater experience of such matters.

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 Regarding the unit award - I think things may have got muddled over the years and much revolves around what unit the officer was in.  

 

24 Brigade Royal Field Artillery was one of the brigades of 37th Division.

 

24th Divisional Artillery comprised106.107 and 108 Batteries.

 

5 Battery was part of 45 Brigade supporting 8 Division.

 

There was no 24th Battery.

 

It was the artillery of 19 Division comprising 87 and 88 Brigades RFA, supplemented by 162 Brigade RFA and 38 Army FA Brigade RFA that played the prime role in the battle of Kemmel Hill in late April 1918 (from the arty op orders for the action and the Official History).  87 Brigade did suffer on 25 Apr and were forced to withdraw after some "hand to hand fighting" (war diary).  162 Brigade withdrew at the last minute leaving 3 guns which were later recovered.

 

If you are reluctant to publish the name**, perhaps you could confirm the battery or brigade the man belonged to.  In your first post you  said you believed the battle was... and later presume 24 Battery.   You also said "There is clear evidence that the French awarded the Croix de Guerre to the RFA unit, presumably 24th Battery", - where is that evidence (and there was no 24 Battery) so your basic assumptions are perhaps a little confused?

What you do with the info you receive is of course your call.

 

There was a Croix de Guerre awarded during April 1918 to an officer of HQRA 19 Division, one (acting Captain) Lt A I James MC.

 

Max

 

** You may wish to send the name by direct message, it will not be publicly repeated.

Edited by MaxD
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Not sure who would be cast in an unfavourable light, but to be fair don't know how anyone can help you should you wish to get to the bottom of this without providing the names of the officers.

 

That said we should at least consider the facts against the wholly fictitious account of a 'sacrifice battery' in your original post.  

 

Back to basics I assume we are discussing the 24th Brigade R.F.A., who along with the 2nd Brigade R.F.A. and together with associated units formed the 6th Division Divisional Artillery.  The 24th Brigade was commanded by Lt. Col J.A.C. Forsyth D.S.O. and comprised 110th Battery commanded by Major P.J.C. Honnor M.C., 111th Battery commanded by Major F.M.A.Wood; 112th Battery Commanded by Mjor W.S. Ironside, D.S.O.,M.C. and 43rd Battery commanded by Major J.B.Tod.  These senior officers were in command as shown from the 1st March 1916 to 1st June 1916 (dates relevant to your query only).  They were supported by a Captain and four to five 2/lieutenants.  The full list of officers can be found in the Divisional Commander's war diary which you can download from the TNA.https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_dss=range&_ro=any&_hb=tna&_srt=1&_q="WO+95%2F1591"

Note it has been split up by TNA so may be more complete.

These lists clearly give a continuity of command of 24th Brigade RFA.

 

Unfortunately the month of April 1918 is missing from the Divisional Commander's war diary. It may be misfiled, I haven't looked.

 

However there is correspondence to show the appreciation of the Commander 14th French Division, but no mention of a C de G either to any unit of the Division, or any individual.  There are rare instances of the award being made in the field to individual officers and men by French Commanders but usually foreign awards were granted by the C.O. of the unit concerned.  Essentially, a quota would be received from High Command and officers and men were nominated by the C.O., unlike British and Empire recommendations which passed up the change of command there was a certainty about the receipt of foreign awards and often they were given to staff officers.

 

Turning to the events of the 24/25 April the war diary of the 24th Brigade (also available from TNA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352313) shows that on the 20th April 1918, 'The French on our right carried out a successful operation and advanced their line in front of Ridge Wood.  One battery of the 24th Brigade assisted with a protective barrage....'  There was a raid by the 2nd Bn D.L.I. on the 21st but nothing of any real significance for the remainder of the month of April, some counter battery work with the RGA and really that was about it.

 

There was further co-operation with the French in May, but owing to the topography of the salient the batteries were subject to frequent gas attacks which caused most of the casualties in these months, especially towards the end of May, so much so that Division was compelled to issue a reminder about protective measures but sadly no 'Valhalla' just the dreadful routine attrition of the Salient.

 

 

Letter from the French Commander

 

 

 

 

 

  

Screenshot 2019-07-16 at 08.21.07.png

Screenshot 2019-07-16 at 08.22.48.png

Edited by kenf48
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Citations for the C de G and other French awards are in the Journal Officiel "Laws and decrees". If his name does not come up in a search, there may be no other remaining source where it is to be found.

Edited by Chris_Baker
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, I agree wholeheartedly with Kenf48's opening remarks. What I was getting at, at the beginning of my post,  is that his unit cannot have been anything beginning with 24. There was no 24 Battery.RFA.  The 24 Brigade as Ron has shown above had nothing to do with the Battle for Kemmel Hill late April.  And the 24th Divisional Artillery also had nothing to do with Kemmel

 

Unless Maj Gen Hughes is wrong, only 5 Battery has the Croix de Guerre and that for action in May 1918..  Hence my zeroing in on the unit the man belonged to as being as vital as his name..

 

Two batteries, 87 and 162, did encounter the enemy face to face on Kemmel Hill so if the man belonged to either, then the personal story might hold up and only the Croix de Guerre has been imagined/mistaken.

 

Awaiting detail!

 

Max

 

 

 

Edited by MaxD
Wrong attribution corrected with apologies
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Without names how can this forum assist? It’s your journals/memoirs against an officers awards without anyone being able to corroborate either story. Names and units will help those on here to help you! So much knowledge is within........ plus, the National Archives have annotated MC citations. Adding the officers name, who received the awards, would go a long way in piecing together the truth, as near to the truth one could get......your choice.

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Kenf48 - a thousand apologies for attributing the earlier post about 24 Brigade to Ron rather than your good self.  My post amended.  Humble pie for breakfast today.

 

Max

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I was going to release the name and provide details before I became uncomfortable knowing that people with a possible military background would be viewing the exercise. How would they feel if an outsider got hold of their military file and used it to ask questions about their background, even fifty years after their death? This forum lists the numbers of replies but not reads but I am guessing for every person who replies there would be several who just read the post. And no one has recommended the officer's name should be suppressed. . I would have thought his family would never get to see this thread - but it may be picked up by a Google search of his name. At least the record will show I was ambivalent about the choice I am making. After all the enquiry is about learning the truth

 

His name was Gerald Steinfeld Kaye. I attach extracts from his file. The type-written document I believe was in a response to the 1935 'Service Enquiry' from the Australian War Memorial also attached. He also served in the Australian Army in WWII, so he is likely to have requested his credentials in WWI be sent from England before enlisting again.

 

The document mentions his service in the London Yeomanry before the war. This was under the name Gerald Steinfeld Kornblum, a name which he changed by deed poll presumably because of anti-German sentiments  at the time (also in his file).

 

For those war historians on this forum the numbers of the various units are obviously important, but much less so for me. Some people are querying my claim that the 24th Battery was in the 24-25/4/1918 battle. My use of that number comes from my father's (1964) memoirs which my sister, the historian, quoted in a book she was writing before she died in 2007 (this helps explain the lateness of my involvement):

 

"My career was an experience of many heavy battles, many hard knocks, a lot of luck but bad breaks at the wrong time. By 1916 I had become a Major in the 24th Regular Battery of RFA (est. 1576).  My father was even prouder than I was.   But being heedless of one’s own danger and heedful of the men under my guard cost me my first battery command in 1916."

 

But I doubt that will satisfy Ken who wrote about my first quote "... the wholly fictitious account of a 'sacrifice battery". I have to restrict myself here to measured language. Does Ken think that all my posts are based on fiction or is it just the quotes? From whom does he think the fiction comes from? My father? Me? What about the attachments? Does he think they are fakes too? What are Ken's credentials for deciding between fact and fiction, 100 years after the fact, beyond being a GWF Lieut-General? An actual  Lieut-General perhaps recently retired?

 

My father received three mentions in despatches signed by Churchill one of which is on my wall, but no medals for gallantry which he always regretted. But I doubt if Ken would believe that either even if I posted a copy of a certificate.

 

Back to the story. The 24th Battery is also shown in one of the extracts from Kaye's war records attached dated 28/2/1918. But I am not hung-up on that particular unit. If it proves to be another that's fine.

 

Max writes about the 'Croix de Guerre with Palms'. As you can see the two mentions in the Kaye record extracts cite only the Croix de Guerre. But in the brother's testimony on tape on the Australian War Memorial website  -

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C282538

 

 - he seems to say 'et Palm'. I believe the tapes were made before the internet so the 'palm' mention  is likely to be genuine. I have already transcribed relevant parts of the 3 tapes.

 

2nd cassette around 37m 20s:

 

"The French made rather a fuss about Neuve-Église which had seemingly gained time at a critical juncture. There was an investiture, .... Gerald, ... received an [word unclear] award of the Croix de Guerre et palm. .... He heard later that the original recommendation had been for the Legion of Honour but that this had been disallowed on the score of a lost battle. ...

 

"On post war visits to France he would wear the ribbon of the Croix in his lapel, in French style. It opened many doors. He was also told that his name had gone to British HQ for a DSO. This was also disallowed."

 

The 'Neuve-Église' sentence seems to be all there is in the recording to justify the medal. The brother seems to regret Gerald 'only' received the Croix de Guerre and the Military Cross.

 

Around the 17m of the third cassette:

 

"Long years ago Gerald showed me the citation of his Croix de Guerre. ... It told in florid French officialese how Captain Kaye of the British Royal Artillery had fought his battery effectively on the 9th April 1918 under appalling conditions and murderous fire and had displayed truly British sang- froid."

 

The 9th April 1918 date conflicts with my belief that the medal was awarded for action on the 24-25th April. But he is remembering from 'long years ago'. He does not explain what had happened to the citation - obviously a precious document - since then. I am confident that his date is wrong, but that is another reason why I am enquiring.

 

Five documents are attached from Kaye's file with lots of dates and units for you historians to investigate. I have war records for my father and two other of his fellow officers and an actual extract from the war diary of  a third officer for the 24th April 1918 (in my sister's records) which places my father in command at the time, but suffering from gas. The only useful information in their official records is that both my father and the third officer were transferred after injury / gassing on either 24th or 25th April 1918.

 

This is a very long post but I hope that it helps someone more skilled with war research and better placed than me find some crucial information.

Extract from Gerald Kaye's WWI Record Kew Archives3.jpg

Extract from Gerald Kaye's WWI Record Kew Archives4.jpg

Extract from Gerald Kaye's WWI Record Kew Archives5.jpg

Extract from Gerald Kaye's WWI Record Kew Archives.jpg

Extract from Gerald Kaye's WWI Record Kew Archives2.jpg

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Let the investigation begin. :)

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I'm perhaps being even dimmer than usual but can someone explain the controversy?  Is there a thought that he got a medal intended for someone else? 

Edited by Heid the Ba
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I must apologise straight away for my error in saying there was no 24 Battery.  This was one of the batteries of 38 Army Field Artillery Brigade and, as his record shows, he was with that battery from 25 February 1918 until 26 April 1918 although away on a course in UK for part of the time.  

 

The war diary for 38 Brigade (he was with that brigade from July 1917) records the brigade in action supporting the French..  It is clear from the entry for 25 April that 72 Battery (with which he had served earlier in the brigade) was heavily shelled  and "suffered considerably" with all officers wounded and the battery temporarily being commanded by a gun number 1.

 Capt Kaye was sent to take temporary command of 72 Battery.  As fairly normal for many war diaries, the entries for 25-27 April (when the French re-took Kemmel)  of the action are sparse.  

 

Max 

 

 

 

 

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My reading of the docs presented are as follows

 

25/2/18 - posted to 24th Battery

3/3/18 - Kaye goes to Shoeburyness on a course

17/3/18 - whilst on a course made Acting Capt as a 2 i/c of a gun battery (this would be the 24th as no other posting recorded)

30/3/18 - Kaye returns to his unit from the course (again the doc would indicate this is back to 24th Battery

26/4/18 - Kay is posted to 72 Battery (also in 38th Brigade RFA) and is subsequently inidicated to be I/C of that Battery

 

So agree with MaxD.

 

My conclusions from the data presented is

The docs make no mention of any "staff" appointments during the relevant period.

The docs would indicate, on the face of it, that Kaye was present on 24/5-4-18. 

He was 2 i/c of the battery on 24/5-4-18

If one accepts the assumption the C de G was awarded to the Battery for the action did the Battery CO also receive one? Was the CO womba's father?

There is no evidence direct documentary evidence (yet found) that the C de G was awarded to Kaye for the battery's action on 24/5th. Indeed womba says from the French version it was awarded for actions on 9/4/18

Kaye was posted out of 24 the day after the battle. So if he did take over the 24th it was literally for one day. This would rather suggest, but not confirm, his presence with the 38 Brigade RFA on that date.

 

I think Ken may have been looking at the wrong unit. Ken is a fine contributor to the GWF who gives his time and energy freely

 

So, all in all, my dispassionate conclusion is the evidence above and so far known does not prove, or in some cases, contradicts the contention that is the subject of this thread. Other evidence is clearly required to make a strong case for the contention. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mark1959
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I would differ in my reading of the events of the latter part of April, supported by the war diary of 38 Army FA Brigade and that of HQRA 25 Division.. The operational sequence of events was:

11 April -  38 Brigade placed under orders of HQRA 25 Division and positioned in the Neuve Eglise area  Kaye is serving in 24 Battery.

21 April - 154 French Division came into the line and took over the front covered by the artillery of 25 Division (which included now 38 Brigade)

23 April - 38 Brigade (and 11 Brigade) handed to 154 French Division.  These two brigades are now the only British field artillery brigades covering the 154 French Division front.

23 April (from 38 Brigade war diary) intense [enemy] shelling of the rear areas during the afternoon which quietened by 9 30 pm.  4 wounded and 20 horses.

24 April - Quiet morning and afternoon, French assaulted Kemmel at 9 30 pm and took Kemmel.  Prisoners warned of an attack liable the next day.  All warned.

25 April  - SOS fired at 2 30 am, all communication lines lost.  Intense [enemy] bombardment at 8 30 am, 72 Battery was heavily shelled  and "suffered considerably" with all officers wounded,  the battery temporarily being commanded by a gun number 1.   Numerous casualties and continuous intermittent shelling until 10 pm.  Capt Kaye to temporary command of 72 Battery. (his record has the posting recorded)

26 April - Quiet day

27 April - French counter attack on Kemmel hill reported successful.

4 May - 38 Brigade withdrawn for a  move to XV Corps area.

 

Now we come to the bit that is the nub of the discussion.

 

The diary records, on 2 May - Col Audipert, CRA French Division presented Croix de Guerre for services during the brigades attachment to the French division to a list of officers and men which includes Major (sic) Kaye.  They are to be found in the London Gazette.

 

The diary also includes a routine order dated 18 May 1918 by the same officer naming in  divisional artillery orders a larger number of officers and men of a number of artillery brigades, including 38 Brigade, each with a short commendation.  The one for Kaye (as commander 72 Battery) reads:

 

Has commanded his battery from 23 April to 1 May 1918, showing exceptional sang-froid under murderous bombardments and a more than perfect contempt for danger (my translation).

 

From the above:

 

There was no unit award (as said before that honour has only ever gone to one RA battery - 5 Battery)

 

One could see how in the story of that day, words like "sacrifice battery"  might creep in to the telling, such a phrase would of course not appear in the war diary.

 

MaxD

 

the war diary is WO 95/294/10

 

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Is there any reference to the other officer in the original post? The name of this officer is now needed too.

 

It seems, from the above diary reference, that Major Kaye was rightly awarded the C de G, and noted as such.

 

Kaye’s MC is obviously also rightly deserved for his services during the whole of the First World War.

 

The research on here, already, has opened up the discussion.......good work. :thumbsup:

Edited by wandererpaul
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I'm beginning to follow this now.

 

Kaye gets an award

 

Kaye goes on leave

 

Officer X receives award for him and makes out it is his.

 

Who is officer X - and did he perhaps also receive the award?  There are a number of officers of all the brigades involved listed in the French CRA's order

 

Max 

 

 

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