8th Artillery Regt mentioned by Jeff

[stevenbecker]

Jeff,

 

Since the MGS at Gallipoli is now closed to answer your question about what you mention as the 8th Artillery Regt.

 

The 8th Artillery Regt mention commanded by the German Wehrle or also known as Werle is

 

Wahle or Wehrle or Werle Friedrich Otto    LtCol to Maj Gen    CO of heavy artillary at Erenköy on Anatolian part - Agir Topçu Birlikleri Basmüfettisi (Heavy Artillery Officer Associations Chief Inspector)        (1851 - 1943) from Fuss school
 

He commanded the 8 Heavy (Agir) Arty which is shown as;

 

8th Heavy (Agir) Artillery Regt (Fortress) - LtCol Mehmet Zekerriya - LtCol Werle (G)     3x Bn's with 1Bn - 3xBtys (12x 150/10.8 guns) + 1Bty (6x 120/11.6 guns) 2Bn - 3xBtys (12x 150/10.8 guns) + 10x 210/6.4 mortars) 4Bn (12x 120/30 & 2x 120/11.6 guns)     1Bn/8th HHA Regt - Maj Rifat 2Bn/8th HHA Regt  - Capt Mehmet Halit 3Bn (Heavy (Agir) Arty) - Capt Ali Tevfik 4Bn (Siege Arty) - Capt. Hasbi Aug 1915 at Helles
 

So it could not be the 8th Artillery Regt mentioned by Bean.

 

But it also could not be the the known 8th Artillery Regt shown as

 

8th Artillery Regt - LtCol Mehmet Zekeriya Bey to Maj Saffet Bey 1916/17

 

This Regt was part of the 8th Div which is shown as Garrison Tschorlu 1914 - shown Saros Bay at June 1915 to Helles July 1915

 

So your right, Bean made a mistake when he claimed the 8th Artillery Regt around Gaba Tepe that day, and the 9th Artillery Regt was the only one around that Front when we attacked.

 

Its only a minor point and one easy made, but can cause much confussion?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 14 July , 2019 by stevebecker

[Jeff Pickerd]

Thanks for that Steve.

 

Jeff

[emrezmen]

Hello,

To ad a little bit more (maybe these were told a million times here, but anyway..):
 

8th Heavy Arty Regt was commanded by Lt.-Col. Zekeriya (right), not by Lt.-Col. Heinrich Wehrle (left), and was attached to a special formation called "Erenköy Area Command" (actually commanded by Wehrle). These two were operating against Allied navy (and later against French right flank at Kerevizdere) on Anatolian side and simply had nothing to do with Anzac on first couple of days.

 

 

As already mentioned by Jeff, one full battery (or company) + a gun (five guns in total) from 9th Arty Regt were under Şefik and used during 1/27's attack on Lone Pine.

 

The "full battery" was 8th Mountain Gun Battery (arrived from Çamburnu during the battle) and the "one gun" was from 7th Mountain Gun Battery (OC: Capt. Sadik). Şefik had only that single gun until the arrival of 8th Batt. 

 

Three guns of 7th Batt. (captured by Australians as we all know) were recaptured intact around 4 pm (but remained where they were until dark due to fighting and lack of transport) and joined battle on the following day. In his official report/narrative attached to 27th Regt's war diary, Şefik simply says:

"Mountain guns which we recaptured from enemy were also utilized and performed well in this battle." 

 

 

See two sketches below from war diary of 27th Regt showing deployment of arty and MGs (this time colorized - you may have seen these before):

 

Below is the organization of both 9th and 8th Arty Regts. 8th Arty Regt was the organic artillery unit of 8th Div as Steve said, and its OC was Maj. Saffet from the beginning - not Lt.-Col. Zekeriya. 9th Arty Regt was commanded by Maj. Mehmet Ali Sevingen.

 

 

My sources for this post:

 

-Published War Diaries of 27th Regiment (Harp Ceridelerine Göre Çanakkale Savaşları'nda 27. Alay, Cilt.I), p.162, p.210, p.232, p.264
-Toker, Hülya. (2017). Çanakkale Muharebelerine Katılan Komutanların Biyografileri (2’nci Baskı). p.278. 

-Görgülü, İsmet. (2014). On Yıllık Harbin Kadrosu. p.76-p.109

-Ataksor, Halis.(2008). Çanakkale Raporu. [Annexes]

-Turkish Gallipoli OH [Annexes]

 

Cheers,

Emre.

Edited 16 July , 2019 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Emre,

 

Thanks mate nice to get feedback,.

 

My Erickson needs updating.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[Jeff Pickerd]

Emre,

 

My many thanks for your informative input, I greatly appreciate the work you have undertaken with making the Ottoman archival material available to us. Keep up the good work when answers are sought from we who have no ability to access, or understand, the Turkish documents.

 

Jeff

 

[Guest]

Emre,

 

your reply had me looking at what were the right details on LtCol Wehrle.

 

I show him as Friedrich Otto, but you have him as Heinrich ?

 

An inquiry on the German site gives me another 

 

Hugo Wehrle (1866-1949)
1917 v.d. Armee
00.06.15 TO3
1914-1915 Kom. d. (osm.) 8. Schw. Art. Regt.
1914 Leiter d. Sch. f. schwere Artillerie (Istanbul)
1912-1914 Kom. d. II./Lehr R. d. Fußart. Schießsch. (Jüterbog)

Oberst 18-04-18
Oberstlt. 18-06-15
Major 10-09-10
Hptm. 12-09-02
Oblt. 27-01-95
Leutn. 17-01-88

 

You will notice that even this shows him as commander 8th Heavy Artillery Regt of the Ottoman Army.

 

But possibly as many Germans were, they were co-commanders with the Ottoman LtCol Zekeriya, as well as CO of heavy Artillary at Erenköy on Anatolian part

 

What I found interesting, was Wehrle is shown as LtCol and later General, but these must have been Ottoman ranks, as his German ranks were Maj to LtCol in June 1915

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[emrezmen]

On 17/07/2019 at 01:49, stevebecker said:

Emre,

 

Thanks mate nice to get feedback,.

 

My Erickson needs updating.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

On 17/07/2019 at 03:02, Jeff Pickerd said:

Emre,

 

My many thanks for your informative input, I greatly appreciate the work you have undertaken with making the Ottoman archival material available to us. Keep up the good work when answers are sought from we who have no ability to access, or understand, the Turkish documents.

 

Jeff

 

Thanks a lot.

 

On 18/07/2019 at 00:06, stevebecker said:

I show him as Friedrich Otto, but you have him as Heinrich ?

 

An inquiry on the German site gives me another 

 

Hugo Wehrle (1866-1949)
1917 v.d. Armee
00.06.15 TO3
1914-1915 Kom. d. (osm.) 8. Schw. Art. Regt.
1914 Leiter d. Sch. f. schwere Artillerie (Istanbul)
1912-1914 Kom. d. II./Lehr R. d. Fußart. Schießsch. (Jüterbog)

Oberst 18-04-18
Oberstlt. 18-06-15
Major 10-09-10
Hptm. 12-09-02
Oblt. 27-01-95
Leutn. 17-01-88

In all Turkish sources that I have access his name given as "Heinrich". This may be wrong or his full name is "Heinrich Hugo Wehrle". I don't think we're talking about two different persons. I actually managed to find some details about Fritz Wossidlo, another prominent German figure at Gallipoli, but not much about Wehrle - except for an alleged photo of him. Still searching, but the info that you've provided is just great. 

 

In Mesut Uyar's book:

 

In Ayhan Aktar's Bouvet article (note 'Howitzer Section'):

 

On 18/07/2019 at 00:06, stevebecker said:

You will notice that even this shows him as commander 8th Heavy Artillery Regt of the Ottoman Army.

 

Obviously, majority of German sources (including Klaus Wolf) say he was in command of 8th Heavy Arty Regt, but Turkish documents have a different story. I just collected some material from four different sources. See:

 

(Source: Turkish Gallipoli OH, vol.1)

An originally Old Ottoman Turkish wartime map/sketch translated into modern Turkish:

In the middle:

"Obüs Mıntıkası (see Ayhan Aktar's source above 'Howitzer Section')

-Komutanı Yarbay Wherle [sic] (Commander Lieutenant Colonel Wherle)

-8'inci Ağır Obüs Alayı (8th Heavy Howitzer Regiment)

-Müstakil Obüs Taburu (Independent Howitzer Battalion)
-1 Adet 40 cm'lik Projektör" (One 40 cm Searchlight)

(Source: Askerî Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi, Sayı 132, s.457. Genelkurmay Askerî Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Daire Başkanlığı (ATASE) Yayınları, Ankara, 2014. / Journal of Military History Documents, Issue 132, p.457. Department of Military History and Strategic Studies (ATASE) Press, Ankara, 2014.)

 

A report dated 17 March 1915 written by Fortified Zone commander. "Verle Bey" called "Mıntıka Komutanı" (Area Commander) while Zekeriya Bey called "8th Regt. commander". ('Sekizinci Alayın kumandasını ifa edecektir'):

(Source: Askerî Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi, Sayı 132, s.305. Genelkurmay Askerî Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Daire Başkanlığı (ATASE) Yayınları, Ankara, 2014. / Journal of Military History Documents, Issue 132, p.305. Department of Military History and Strategic Studies (ATASE) Press, Ankara, 2014.)

 

See full career of Lt-Col Zekeriya:

"Appointed as 8th Heavy Howitzer Regiment Commander on 17 January 1914".

Appointed as Erenköy and Intepe Area Commander (as an additional position) on 17 August 1915"

 

(Source: Toker, Hülya (2017). Çanakkale Muharebelerine Katılan Komutanların Biyografileri (2’nci Baskı) Genelkurmay Askerî Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Daire Başkanlığı (ATASE) Yayınları, Ankara / Biographies of Officers Participated in Gallipoli Campaign (2nd Edition). Department of Military History and Strategic Studies (ATASE) Press, Ankara.)

 

Last one is from İsmet Görgülü's famous work "On Yillik Harbin Kadrosu":

 

On 18/07/2019 at 00:06, stevebecker said:

But possibly as many Germans were, they were co-commanders with the Ottoman LtCol Zekeriya, as well as CO of heavy Artillary at Erenköy on Anatolian part

 

This is not quite possible, I guess. Never came across any info about such command system in Ottoman army.

 

On 18/07/2019 at 00:06, stevebecker said:

What I found interesting, was Wehrle is shown as LtCol and later General, but these must have been Ottoman ranks, as his German ranks were Maj to LtCol in June 1915

 

In some Turkish articles I saw him called "Pasha", but I can't deny or confirm this at the moment. He definitely became a Lt.-Col. (Kaymakam or Yarbay) in Ottoman army, meaning he was originally a Major in German army. 

 

Attached is a report written by him on 4 March 1915. He signed it as "Yarbay Wehrle":

(Source: Askerî Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi, Sayı 132, s.219. Genelkurmay Askerî Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Daire Başkanlığı (ATASE) Yayınları, Ankara, 2014 / Journal of Military History Documents, Issue 132, p.219. Department of Military History and Strategic Studies (ATASE) Press, Ankara, 2014)

 

Regards,

Emre

 

Edited 18 July , 2019 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Mate,

 

The only details I have on Wossidlo is;

 

Wossidlo Fritz    LtCol Naval    önce Çanakkale'de sonra Suriye ve Irak'taki deniz birliklerinde (first in Çanakkale then in sea troops in Syria and Iraq) Mesopotamia
 

His rank LtCol is shown as an Ottoman rank not German?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

Edited 19 July , 2019 by stevebecker

[emrezmen]

22 hours ago, stevebecker said:

Mate,

 

The only details I have on Wossidlo is;

 

Wossidlo Fritz    LtCol Naval    önce Çanakkale'de sonra Suriye ve Irak'taki deniz birliklerinde (first in Çanakkale then in sea troops in Syria and Iraq) Mesopotamia
 

His rank LtCol is shown as an Ottoman rank not German?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

 

I found some details sometime ago and just noted down. I can't remember source, so they can't be considered 100% correct.

 

Born on 4 August 1877 in Misdroy, Pommern.

Died on 9 September 1942 in Rostock. 

Retired in 1923 as a Konteradmiral (Rear Admiral). Called again in 1939, as a reserve or something like that, I guess.

 

Not sure if he was sent to Middle East after Gallipoli, but he was promoted (automatically, like all others) to Lt.-Col. when he joined Ottoman army, so he was a Major (Korvettenkapitän) in German navy. Below is the first page of Ottoman defence plan dated 22 October 1914. "Kaim-makam Vosidlo Bey".

 

Original:

(Source: Askerî Tarih Belgeleri Dergisi, Sayı 132, s.1-17. Genelkurmay Askerî Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Daire Başkanlığı (ATASE) Yayınları, Ankara, 2014. / Journal of Military History Documents, Issue 132, p.1-17. Department of Military History and Strategic Studies (ATASE) Press, Ankara, 2014.)

 

Here is a photo of him. He's seen in Ottoman field uniform. Note the burning round shot insignia on his collar (always reminds me Royal Scots Fus. badge!), indicating that he's serving in heavy artillery class.

 

Another one. Early in the war:

 

 

 

Edited 20 July , 2019 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Mate,

 

A number of German Naval men were sent to Mesopotamia to either form or help the River units there?

 

I have a few named who ran naval ships there but what they did is unclear?

 

These names I have

 

Brinckman (Brinkman)    1/Ltdz Naval    Üstegmen Brinckman Firat nehir gemilerinde komutan (Commander on the Firat (Euphrates) River ships) Mesopotamia
Busse Wilhelm    Maj - LtKom Naval    Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri Kurmay Baskani Irak'taki deniz Alaylari komutani (Turkish Navy Chief of Staff Navy commander in Iraq) Mesopotamia
Cappeln von    Capt Naval    shown at Rayak - Firat nehri üzerindeki deniz birliklerinin komutani (Commander of naval units over the Firat (Euphrates) River) Mesopotamia
Engelkind    Capt Naval    Firat'ta Dogan Hücüm botu komutani (Dogan Force botto commander at Firat (Euphrates) River) Mesopotamia
Mücke Hellmuth von    Lt to Capt Naval    "SMS Emden" sayed after escape across the Indian Ocean Firat Nehir birlikleri Komutani (Firat (Euphrates) River Forces Commander) Mesopotamia
Putzer    Capt Naval    Firat Nehir Topçu Birlik.Komutani Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutani Emir subayi (Firat (Euphrates) River Artillery Unity Commander of the Turkish Naval Forces Commander) Mesopotamia
Raspel     1/Ltdz Naval    Firat nehir gemilerinde komutan (Commander on the Firat (Euphrates) River ships) Mesopotamia
Seyffarrdt    Capt Naval    Firat nehir birliklerinde (Firat (Euphrates) River troops) Mesopotamia
 

Sorry if I change from Gallipoli question

 

S.B