Dorothy Crawford Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 Can anyone help with these items they were in a box belonging to My Grandfather who was an Observor in the Flying Corp but my Dad was at Dunkirk and they may belong to him. The one with the Thistle seems to have latin around it. Sorry smaller one very difficult to photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 First badge looks to be a Scots Guards collar badge and the second appears to be an officers pip J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 1 hour ago, jay dubaya said: First badge looks to be a Scots Guards collar badge J Made into a lapel pin or some such by the addition of a safety pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 (edited) The Guards did not wear collar badges on SD, but they did adopt rank stars (‘pips’) after WW1 formed from miniature stars of the Order of the Thistle. See uppermost enclosed photo. Instead it seems to be an officers SD collar badge of the Royal Scots, one time 1st Regiment of Foot. The other rank star shown is the standard pattern based on the Order of the Bath, and known as a ‘Bath Star’. Edited 14 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 Thank you for the clarification Frogsmile, having consulted Westlake the first badge pictured above is intended to be worn on the shoulder of Full Dress up to the time of the Second World War. That said Westlake describes this as a bi-metal badge whereas the above appears all brass/GM? J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, jay dubaya said: Thank you for the clarification Frogsmile, having consulted Westlake the first badge pictured above is intended to be worn on the shoulder of Full Dress up to the time of the Second World War. That said Westlake describes this as a bi-metal badge whereas the above appears all brass/GM? J I don’t think that the small, all-GM badge posted initially is Scots Guards, Jay. It is I believe a variant worn by the Royal Scots officers, as per the range that you see in the group photo above. The Scots Guards did not generally wear collar badge on undress, just full dress and mess dress. SD Shoulder strap badges for ORs were used, however, in all brass letters with white metal thistle for other ranks. The Scots Guards sergeants badge was bi-metal, with WM star and GM circlet centre. It is correct that metal badges were worn on full dress shoulder straps for ranks below warrant officer before WW1. I believe these were bi-metal for sergeants and all gilding metal for rank and file, effectively the same badge as that worn on forage caps. It’s all a question of the size of the badge. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 14 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2019 Thank you all for your answers. Grandad was in the Kings Royal Rifles before the flying corp but I always thought he was in a mounted unit before this as photos of him on a grey horse were in a photo on the wall in his house. Could he have possibly transferred to the KRR as he married a girl from London? How could I find out The smaller badge has like 3 little acorn shaped things in the middle very difficult to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 6 minutes ago, Dorothy Crawford said: Thank you all for your answers. Grandad was in the Kings Royal Rifles before the flying corp but I always thought he was in a mounted unit before this as photos of him on a grey horse were in a photo on the wall in his house. Could he have possibly transferred to the KRR as he married a girl from London? How could I find out The smaller badge has like 3 little acorn shaped things in the middle very difficult to see The little acorns are Bishop’s mitres. If you look up ‘Bath Star’ you will see. It relates to the motto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 14 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 14 July , 2019 Thank you so much Frogsmile I can see now so it was Grandad's that is great many thanks. Still confused as to the Scots guards badge he had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 July , 2019 Share Posted 14 July , 2019 56 minutes ago, Dorothy Crawford said: Thank you so much Frogsmile I can see now so it was Grandad's that is great many thanks. Still confused as to the Scots guards badge he had I think it is Royal Scots, not Scots Guards, but it depends on size. I will do some digging and get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Frogsmile Do you want me to measure it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Frogsmile here are 2 photos of Grandad. The first is when he was a young Sabaltern don't know what uniform is but second is in KRR uniform perhaps this will help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 His name would help Dorothy and if you could also photograph the reverse of the badge in question. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Dorothy Crawford said: Frogsmile here are 2 photos of Grandad. The first is when he was a young Sabaltern don't know what uniform is but second is in KRR uniform perhaps this will help In the photo as a subaltern he is wearing the officers pattern cap badge (scarlet cord boss and bugle) and buttons of the KRRC, but in the head and shoulders shot where he is much younger he wears the service dress uniform and general service buttons of an ordinary soldier, Dorothy. Neither regimental, nor rank insignia, is visible in that photo. I imagine he was either an OTC cadet if at college or university, or else volunteered or was called up into some other unit before being commissioned into the KRRC. Do you know if he was at college or public school? Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 47 minutes ago, Dorothy Crawford said: Frogsmile Do you want me to measure it ? If you could measure it and show a photo of the rear that would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 The badge is approximately 1 and a half inches long and the same wide. Posting some others buttons badges in same box if you could tell me what they are may be my Father's. Grandad was a 2nd Lt in the Flying corp he was an Observor. Shot down in Belgium his pilot killed will post report below but quite a thread about it all under hsi name William Irvine Crawford. The POW statement says William Ivan but it is wrong. Thanks for all the help Maria-Aalter Near Ruddervoorde Belgium DH4 A7840: "Left 0610 for raid on Thourout, in combat with E.A., went into dive Maria Aeltre (sic) -Capt. A E Palfreyman killed and 2/Lt W I Crawford POW wounded. Shot down by Lieutenant Dieter Collin, Commander Of Jasta 56 most likely this(make more sense than the other plane D.H.9)-Link RUDDERVOORDE COMMUNAL CEMETERY Grave/Memorial Reference:56-Commerative Roll IN MEMORY OF Captain Audubon Eric Palfreyman 27th Squadron., Royal Air Force Who Died Age 26 On 23rd May 1918- Son Of The Rev. I. H. And Mrs. Palfreyman, Of Hobart, Tasmania, Australia- Remembered With Honour Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Frogsmile sorry no idea of his education Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) He was one of many ‘regimental aircrew’ attached to the RFC, rather than actual substantive members of it. Just as with the contemporary Army Air Corps, the RFC comprised a core of permanent manpower (wearing the insignia of the RFC) and a large group of regimentally badged personnel attached as aircrew, i.e. pilots and observers. These latter would do flying tours of duty and then survivors would either, return to their parent units, or apply for permanent transfer. Depending upon their performance they would be accepted and re-badged as RFC, or gently turned down and returned to their original unit. Many of course became casualties. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Dorothy Crawford said: Now I can see the rear of the badge and compare its size with the Bath Star rank pip, it appears to be a rank and file (below sergeant rank) forage cap badge of the Scots Guards (also used on full dress shoulder straps). The buttons are the general service pattern (used by the majority, but not all corps/regiments) as is seen on the head and shoulders shot of your granddad. The lapel badge relates to the Army Service Corps (ASC), so with they tentative connection, perhaps he was an ASC soldier before becoming commissioned with the KRRC. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 No the ASC was my Dad his son. Thanks for that at least I know now what is what in the box. The mystery now is when was he in the Scots guards if at all but I was always told he was in the mounted Scots greys and certainly there was a photo of him on a grey horse in his home - Thanks for the other info. What did the insignia of the RFC look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 1 hour ago, jay dubaya said: His name would help Dorothy and if you could also photograph the reverse of the badge in question. J 2nd Lt William Irvine Crawford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 July , 2019 Share Posted 15 July , 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Dorothy Crawford said: No the ASC was my Dad his son. Thanks for that at least I know now what is what in the box. The mystery now is when was he in the Scots guards if at all but I was always told he was in the mounted Scots greys and certainly there was a photo of him on a grey horse in his home - Thanks for the other info. What did the insignia of the RFC look like? Both cavalry (incl Scots Greys) and Guards wore special regimental buttons, and not GS buttons, as well as shoulder titles that would be visible in your photo. The RFC cap badge is shown below. Edited 15 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorothy Crawford Posted 15 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 15 July , 2019 Thank you very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 16 July , 2019 Share Posted 16 July , 2019 I have a couple of - possibly unhelpful, though I hope not - observations: I believe the ASC became the RASC by Royal Warrant in November 1918, in which case I would assume your father was RASC, Dorothy - don't know enough to say if that makes any difference to the Corps lapel badge, but I bet Frogsmile does! Also, infantry officers ride horses in some regiments rode horses periodically (both Robert Graves and Frank Richards recalled in their memoirs the RWF junior officers' riding school). ASC too, now I come to think of it? Appreciate neither observation may help here in which case, apologies. Cheers, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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