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2nd northant medal card help pls

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J w mims

I have been researching a soldier from the 2nd Northamptonshire regiment. His name is lance corporal  #9019 george w mimms. His medal card states he served with 2nd northants but i found online he was with the 7th northants in 1917 when awarded the military medal. I believe he was wounded twice and survived the war.i am posting his medal card and hoping someone can help shed more light on his time in the Army such as where he was at and any battle he may was involed in.

Thanks so Very much for your help and advice,

James Mims

Screenshot_2019-07-06-01-36-30.png

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PRC

The Medal Index cards were exactly that - index cards to keep track of the service medal rolls and some of the information noted on them. They were first created to cover those men entitled to either the 1914 Star or the 1915 Star. If you look at the handwriting it looks like two and potentially three different individuals added details - one created the card, one added details of the 1915 clasp, and another the entry relating to his British War Medal & Victory Medal.

 

The clerk who created the card adds the qualifying criteria for the 1914 star that he landed in a theatre of war on the 6th November 1914 and also that he was serving with the 2nd Battalion.

 

The Long, Long Trail parent site notes that the 2nd Northants were in India Egypt at the outbreak of the war, and moved to France, landing at Le Havre on the 5th November 1914 - the 6th could well have been the first day they paraded as a Battalion after landing.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/northamptonshire-regiment/

 

The Army Service Numbers blog indicates that service number 9019 Northamptonshire Regiment was issued between January 1909 & 1910 - so if if opted for the standard seven years in the colours and five in the reserves, he would most likely have been out in India - the 1st Battalion had been in France since August 1914 so it's unlikely he was a spare reservist that was sent over to make up the numbers. http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/northamptonshire-regiment-1st-2nd.html

 

There is a possibility that he may well be on the 1911 Census of England and Wales even if he was serving in India, so could be worth a check to see if you can establish which Battalion he was with - although movement between the 1st, 2nd & 3rd/Depot were relatively common.

 

So most likely he was wounded at some point after arriving at France and on recovery moved to the 7th Battalion. I've not had cause recently to look, (and no longer have a subscription), but I'm told the Victory and BWM Service Medal Rolls for the Northamptonshire Regiment are fairly basic, but could be worth checking out. They are only on Ancestry to the best of my knowledge.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited by PRC
13/07/19 - corrected location of the 2nd Battalion in August 1914

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Acknown

1919 VM/BWM Medal Roll on Ancestry: click here.

Acknown

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jonbem

Hi here is the Gazette entry

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13066/page/572

Header 2 pages earlier on pg 570

rgds

Jon

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The Inspector

Hi James

 The medal award rolls show  Class Z  on  10.2.19. so he did survive the war..looking

Regards Barry

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jonbem

War Diary on National Archives for £3.50 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14017288

24 Infantry Brigade: 2 Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment.

  •  

Reference: WO 95/1722/2
Description:

24 Infantry Brigade: 2 Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment.

Date: 1915 Oct 1 - 1917 June 30
Edited by jonbem

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Mark1959

He was wounded at least twice possibly 3 times

He was admitted to 2 General Hospital, Le Havre on 20/12/14 for GSW and frostbite. At the time he was A Company 2 Northants. He was sent to the HS Asturias. It says 9 years service.

On 12/5/15 he is admitted to 2GH for GSW left hip. Again put on the Asturias. 10 years service. Still showing A Coy 2nd Battalion.

FMP have the admission books

Also on a War Office List as wounded on 10/4/16. Battalion unknown. if I get chance will see if others on list have records re their battalion. 

 

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PRC
15 minutes ago, PRC said:

There is a possibility that he may well be on the 1911 Census of England and Wales even if he was serving in India, so could be worth a check to see if you can establish which Battalion he was with.

 

Following up my own suggestion, the 21 year old Private George Mimms, a single man, was recorded in barracks with the 2nd Battalion, Northamptonshire Regiment at Floriana Barrack, Malta on the 1911 Census of England and Wales !

 

If you have an Ancestry subscription you should be able to see the War Diaries for both the 2nd and 7th Battalion, as both served in France and Flanders.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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sotonmate
2 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

Also on a War Office List as wounded on 10/4/16. Battalion unknown. if I get chance will see if others on list have records re their battalion. 

 

Original medal Roll only gives 2 Battalion, so likely to have served as a Regular with the same unit throughout the war.

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The Inspector

Hi James

Do you have any further details on George?   You have posted his name as George W Mimms, the records on Ancestry all relate to George Mimms. Did he marry Dorothy May Moore on 4th June 1918 and lived at 154 High Cross Rd., Tottenham. Aged 26 yrs Occ. a soldier.? 1939 register d. of b. 24.12.1889, Ancestry has abt 1892. on Marriage Record.

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector

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PRC
8 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

He was wounded at least twice possibly 3 times

He was admitted to 2 General Hospital, Le Havre on 20/12/14 for GSW and frostbite. At the time he was A Company 2 Northants. He was sent to the HS Asturias. It says 9 years service.

On 12/5/15 he is admitted to 2GH for GSW left hip. Again put on the Asturias. 10 years service. Still showing A Coy 2nd Battalion.

FMP have the admission books

 

Hopefully an error on those lengths of service - unless he signed up as a "son of the regiment". As far as I'm aware young soldier's didn't get renumbered when they reached 18 and opted to remain with the army.

 

Service number dates enlistment to 1909/1910.

1911 census gives his age as 21, (but place of birth "not known")

9 years service in 1914 / 10 in 1915 would have him joining the Army in 1905 when he would have been aged circa 15.

 

I'm sure there is some way the maths works out - probably just needs some more information :-)

 

Peter

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Mark1959

This is the evidence

There is a George Mimms enlisted Scots Guards 6309 on 25/11/05.  Shoemaker. This man transferred to 2 Northants on 7/7/09. A receipt for his attestation paper shows this man became 9019 2 Northants.

Edit Forgot to add SG record gives age as 15y 11m

Edited by Mark1959

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PRC
1 minute ago, Mark1959 said:

This is the evidence

There is a George Mimms enlisted Scots Guards 6309 on 25/11/05.  Shoemaker. This man transferred to 2 Northants on 7/7/09. A receipt for his attestation paper shows this man became 9019 2 Northants.

 

There is alway one more bit of information that makes everything else fit :-)

 

Just to build on that, there is an 11 year old George Mimms, born Mile End, London, who was recorded as a "Boy in School" at an institution on the 1901 Census of England and Wales - unfortunately can't work out which one other than it is in the parish of Hampstead, Middlesex. Under the column "Occupation" it is noted "Working 1/2 day in Shoe Shop" - which sounds like he was being got ready to be a Shoemaker. I suspect there was also a well worn path from such institutions into the armed forces.

 

Peter

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The Inspector

Hi All

Military medal card

He is the same man we are posting about. b.24.12.1889, Poplar died 26th May 1958, London. Married as above had 4 children.

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector

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Mark1959

There is a post war discharge for a 6196112 born 25/12/1889 G Mimms. This seems to be same man the inspector refers to.  He also appears to be the same man that is an LNER Porter in 1939 List living in Tottenham. 

If he is the same man as the OP is after  then his records may still be with MoD. The age on SG record of 15y 11m in Nov 1905 is pretty much bang on!

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clk

Hi James,

 

As already mentioned MICs were created from medal roll records. I think that the primary purpose of the medal rolls wasn't necessarily to show a precis of the full service history of a man, but to establish his medal entitlement. It might be worth looking at the rolls for the Northants generally to see what information they generally included. Some Regiments/Corps listed all overseas units, others just show the qualifying unit. 

 

FMP (link) has a couple of hospital admission/discharge  records for George.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

Yet again I see that I'm too late with my info!!

Edited by clk

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The Inspector

Hi All

1901 census has George with his father George and mother Florrie at 2 Canton Bdgs, East Side, Poplar. Father is a Carman/Railways. George Jnr is shown as aged 12 yrs on Ancestry, transcription error, he is 2, see the census, amendment submitted.

Chris...the rolls don't show anything further

Regards Barry

Edited by The Inspector

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PRC
9 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

 

1901 census has George with his father George and mother Florrie at 2 Canton Bdgs, East Side, Poplar. Father is a Carman/Railways. George Jnr is shown as aged 12 yrs on Ancestry, transcription error, he is 2, see the census

 

 

I refer you to my earlier statement :-)

 

41 minutes ago, PRC said:

Just to build on that, there is an 11 year old George Mimms, born Mile End, London, who was recorded as a "Boy in School" at an institution on the 1901 Census of England and Wales - unfortunately can't work out which one other than it is in the parish of Hampstead, Middlesex. Under the column "Occupation" it is noted "Working 1/2 day in Shoe Shop" - which sounds like he was being got ready to be a Shoemaker. I suspect there was also a well worn path from such institutions into the armed forces.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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The Inspector

Hi Peter and all

Agreed. Can't just rely on Ancestry Trees, loads of them are wrong.

Regards Barry

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PRC
13 hours ago, PRC said:

The Long, Long Trail parent site notes that the 2nd Northants were in India at the outbreak of the war, and moved to France, landing at Le Havre on the 5th November 1914 - the 6th could well have been the first day they paraded as a Battalion after landing.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/northamptonshire-regiment/

 

 

The following was taken from an old thread on the forum, now apparently archived and no longer available..

 

In 1914 the 2nd Battalion were stationed in Alexandria, Egypt. Recalled to the UK to prepare for active service in France, departed from Alexandria aboard the S.S. Deseado (with a strength of 17 officers (plus 2 attached), 891 men, and 107 wives and children). Sailing west through the Mediterranean they passed Malta on 3rd October and docked in error at Marseilles on 6th October 1914. The journey to England resumed on 8th October after two days awaiting confirmation of orders, with the ship arriving at Gibraltar on 10th October.

The Deseado docked at Liverpool at 10pm on 16th October 1914 and entrained to Winchester at 2.55am on the 17th October 1914 arriving at midday. While they waited for further orders they were stationed at Hursley Park Camp, 5 miles from Winchester. The 2nd Battalion joined 24th Brigade of 8th Division, with a Draft of 282 Reservists and Special Reservists join the battalion on 17th October 1914.

On 3rd November 1914 the original men of the 2nd Battalion marched to Southampton to embark to France. They embarked aboard the steamer "Turcoman" on 4th November, leaving port at 8pm and arriving at Havre on the morning of the 5th November 1914. The battalion remained on board overnight due to the tide, and disembarked at 9am on the morning of the 6th November 1914.

 

If George was on the most common form of enlistment, (7+5) from his 18th birthday, then he would still have been in the last year of his service in the colours, and so most likely in Egypt at the outbreak of the war. The fact he was with the 2nd Battalion in Malta at the start of April 1911 rules out a straight 3+9 term. There are however scenarios where he could have left the Army between April 1911 and August 1914 and so be one of those recalled Reservists so it can't be ruled out entirely.

 

I have corrected my original post about the battalions location.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit - google search brought up the old post -

All credit to Stebie9173 for providing the above information.

 

Edited by PRC
Add link to the original post.

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ss002d6252
12 hours ago, PRC said:

Hopefully an error on those lengths of service - unless he signed up as a "son of the regiment". As far as I'm aware young soldier's didn't get renumbered when they reached 18 and opted to remain with the army.

 

Service number dates enlistment to 1909/1910.

1911 census gives his age as 21, (but place of birth "not known")

9 years service in 1914 / 10 in 1915 would have him joining the Army in 1905 when he would have been aged circa 15.

 

I'm sure there is some way the maths works out - probably just needs some more information :-)

 

Peter

You're right peter, they weren't renumbered.

 

To get a 1909/1910 service number would have needed either a complete break in service or a transfer to another regiment/corps.

 

Edit

Reading on my phone, just noticed that the service issue has already been resolved.

 

Craig

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Stebie9173

The vast majority of the Northamptonshire Regiment medal rolls only showed the required information for medal rolls - i.e. the first battalion served overseas with during the war - in this case the 2nd.

 

There are two sources for 2nd Battalion around the beginning of the 1910s - the census as mentioned above and a muster roll at Colchester in July 1910 on the occasion of the 50 anniversary of the presentation of the Regimental Colours. In combination these give some clues as to whereabouts of men in that period. For example:

  1. On the 1910 Muster Roll at Colchester and the 1911 Census with 2nd Battalion at Malta - usually means home service until embarking overseas with 2nd Battalion in early 1911
  2. On the 1910 Muster Roll at Colchester but not on the 1911 Census at Malta - usually means home service until after 1911
  3. Not on the 1910 Muster Roll at Colchester but on the 1911 Census with 2nd Battalion at Malta - usually means that the soldier has embarked for overseas service with 1st Battalion in India before June 1910 and then switch to 2nd Battalion at Malta.

George Mimms appears to fit option 3. What happened with these men is that the Hired Transport Dongola sailed to Malta with 2nd Battalion men in early 1911 dropped those men off, then steamed to India and picked up 1st Battalion to return them home. Those men of 1st Battalion with overseas time still to serve were then dropped off at Malta on the return journey.

 

It was the procedure for the Industrial Schools (George was at Field Lane Certified Industrial School for Boys at Hampstead in 1901) to train the boys under their care for a trade upon leaving the school system. Shoemaking was very common as was entry into the army as Boys. He would also have been very at home in the Northamptonshire Regiment as they were full of cobblers!

 

The 2nd Battalion soldiers on the 1911 Census were actually listed by Regiment number so we can be sure that the man picked out above is the right George Mimms. The man before him on the Census listing is 9018 Frederick Hubert Warren and the man after is 9020 Ernest Wallis.

 

His Military Medal is likely to have been awarded in late 1916 - you usually see a three or four month delay. I cannot see a specific mention of the award in the war diary. There were four awards to 7th Battalion men in the same Gazette edition:

  • 17618 Pte. F. Dorr, North'n R.
  • 9019 Pte (L/C). G. Mimms, North'n R.
  • 18042 Cpl. P. Moore, North'n R.
  • 15607 Sjt. H. Pebody, North'n R.

It may be that each of these men were awarded their Military Medals due to individual gallantry at separate times. IF (big if) they were awarded at the same time then it is likely to have been during a raid - either offensively or defensively. It is POSSIBLE that it may have been in conjunction with a British raid on the German lines at Kennedy Crater near Vimy led by Lieutenant George Shankster and Second-Lieutenant Bertie Wright on the night of the 9/10-10-1916. Lt. George Shankster was killed during the raid (CWGC incorrectly records him as 6th battalion). There is a plan, map and write up of the raid in the war diary of 7th Battalion, but no mention of individual awards.

 

So to summarise on what everybody has posted above:

 

1889 - Age 00 - Born on 24-12-1889 per 1939 Register

1901 - Age 11 - At Field Lane Certified Industrial School at Hampstead

1905 - Age 15 - Enlisted into the Scots Guards on 25-11-1905, No. 6309

1909 - Age 19 - Transferred to The Northamptonshire Regiment, No. 9019

1910 - Age 20 - Overseas to 1st Battalion in India/Aden

1911 - Age 21 - Sailed about HT. Dongola from India to Malta

1911 - Age 21 - At Malta with 2nd Battalion

1914 - Age 24 - Sailed from Malta to Egypt in early 1914

1914 - Age 24 - In Alexandria, Egypt at outbreak of war in early August 1914 (incidentally qualifies for the British War Medal even if no other overseas service)

1914 - Age 24 - Sailed back from Egypt to the UK in September 1914

1914 - Age 24 - Arrived back in the UK in October 1914

1914 - Age 24 - Sailed to France on 4-11-1914 landing on 6-11-1914

1914 - Age 24 - To hospital from "A" Company, 2nd Battalion - Gunshot wound and frostbite - a day or so prior to 20-12-1914. Admitted to No. 2 General Hospital at La Havre on 20-12-1914. Evacuated to UK aboard hospital ship Asturias.  He was reported as Wounded as a Private in a casualty list in the  Times of 1-2-1915 which is probably this occurrence.

1914 - Age 24 - 2nd Battalion take part in the Christmas Truce 24-12-1914

1915 - Age 25 - Battle of Neuve Chapelle 10 to 14-3-1915

1915 - Age 25 - Battle of Aubers Ridge 9-5-1915

1915 - Age 25 - Admitted to No. 2 General Hospital from "A" Company, 2nd Battalion with a gun-shot wound to the left hip on 12 May 1915. Evacuated to the UK aboard Hospital Ship Asturias. This wounding was very likely to have been during 2nd Battalion's attack at Rouge Bancs near Fromelles on 9-5-1915.

1916 - Age 26 - Transferred to 7th Battalion - date unknown. Could have been after wounding in March 1916.

1916 - Age 26 - Reported as Wounded as a Private per the Times of 12-4-1916 - wounding would have probably been during March 1916. May still have been with 2nd Battalion?

1916 - Age 26 - Awarded the Military Medal with 7th Battalion during the latter part of 1916.

1917 - Age 27 - Battalion unknown - likely to have been with 7th Battalion. 7th Battalion took part in the first day of the Third Battle of Ypres on 31-7-1917.

1918 - Age 28 - Married in March 1918 - Marriage certificate unhelpfully just says "Soldier". There may be further information on the birth certificate of his daughter, Elizabeth M Mimms.

1918 - Age 28 - Battalion unknown - if with 7th Battalion then took part in defensive actions on the Somme in March 1918 and then in the advance from August 1918.

1919 - Age 29 - Demobilised on 13-1-1919 (28 days before transfer to Class Z Army Reserve)

1919 - Age 29 - Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve on 10-2-1919

 

 

And just to re-iterate. If the Middlesex Regiment (No. 6196112) man mentioned by Mark in post #15 is the right man then his records will still be held by the MOD, and most of the supposition above will be redundant!

 

 

 

Steve.

Edited by Stebie9173

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BIFFO

now Steve's THE MAN,believe me:thumbsup:

:poppy:

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Stebie9173

His wounding in December 1914 appears to have actually been described in the war diary:

 

From 16 December to 1 pm on 18 December 1914

 

In billets at the Rue de la Lys. The time was spent in refitting and exercising the men by running, walking and Swedish drill.

 

From 1 pm 18 December 1914

 

1 pm. Friday 18th. The battalion received orders to move with reduced transport and extra ammunition in the direction of ROUGE CROIX.

 

Owing to short notice the battalion were 30 minutes late arriving at ROUGE CROIX than it should have been. Here we occupied at portion of a line of trenches which are being constructed as a second line in case we have to retire.

 

The general idea was as follows: The right of the line was held by Devonshire Regiment, 23rd Brigade, were to attack a German trench so as to straighten out the line, the 24th Brigade were held in Reserve to A, B & C lines. We were in support of "B" lines in case the Scottish Rifles holding those lines made a forward movement. The attack was to be made at 4.30pm assisted by artillery fire. The 1/Sherwood Foresters was in general reserve at the RED BARN. The 2/East Lancashire Regiment were holding a bit of the same line of trenches on our left, our dividing line being the road from ESTAIRES to PONT LOGY (*). Heavy artillery began at 4.00pm and last about one hour. About 7 pm a message was received that the Devonshire Regiment had taken a German trench and several prisoners and were holding on. Nothing further had transpired though we heard the Indians on our left were to attack at 3.30 am which, judging by the musketry fire, they did though we did not hear what fate their attack met with. In their case the artillery opened fire after their attack not before as in ours.

 

We received orders to move back to our old billets from whence we had come at 7 am. The East Lancashire Regiment moved up in support of the right of "C" lines.

 

The night was cold and cheerless and it was only possible to get shelter for 6 platoons (out of 16) in neighbouring buildings. Two men were hit by stray bullets, one of whom died later on, the other case was only a trifling injury.

 

Casualties - 1 killed, 1 wounded

 

19 December 1914

 

The battalion marched off at 7 am reaching RUE de la LYS about 8.30 am and rested the remainder of the day.

 

 

-----

 

The man killed was 9456 Private Fred Johnson of 86 Green Street, Northampton. The local press confirms that he was shot through the head. The battalion was only in the line for a day around this time, severely limiting the battalion's exposure to enemy fire, so it looks likely that his wounding was on the 18 December 1914.

 

(*) The Estaires-Pont Logy road referred to is the modern D947. The front line was at Neuve Chapelle. Pont Logy was in the area of the junction of the Rue de Carnin and the D947 west of Neuve Chapelle. Rouge Croix was further back behind the lines at the crossroads of the D947 and the Rue du Puits.

 

 

 

Steve.

 

Edited by Stebie9173

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