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Clear Bell

Books about de-mobbing and reintegration of soldiers following 'end' of WW1?

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Clear Bell

Hi

 

Is anyone aware of work being done, or can advise about the primary/secondary sources, about the mechanisms used to release soldiers from service - to re-enter the workforce (or not) or, perhaps, study, or even continuing medical treatment? There are odds and ends to do with the research that I think might reflect continuing care for ex-soldiers but would like to try and pin this down. For instance when I researched the RCA WW1 memorial I noticed that one former soldier who contracted influenza, then pneumonia, was treated at a military hospital even though he had returned to the art school some time before. Unfortunately, he didn't survive, but was buried with military I've become curious about whether this was due to his recent service or whether it was entirely happenstance. Does anyone have even an inkling of how I might begin to try find this kind of thing out?

 

I know a little about the staged demobilisation and I've seen many forms sent in by serving soldiers hoping to pick up their studies, but I don't know about when/how these were issued and so on. I would like to know far more.

 

As always, any help or pointers about this would be much appreciated.

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ss002d6252

The Ministry of Pension (MoP) certainly arranged continuing care in respect of men discharged disabled (or those who later claimed disability from military service).

As for treatment at military hospitals I'm not sure what the rules would have been if a man was discharged and needed treatment other than that via the MoP.  It may have been coincidence (certainly it was hard to find a man post war who hadn't served and the flu epidemic called in all available resources) or he may have had a right to treatment under some sort of reserve commitment. I'm sure someone will know more about that side.

Craig

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Clear Bell
8 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The Ministry of Pension (MoP) certainly arranged continuing care in respect of men discharged disabled (or those who later claimed disability from military service).

As for treatment at military hospitals I'm not sure what the rules would have been if a man was discharged and needed treatment other than that via the MoP.  It may have been coincidence (certainly it was hard to find a man post war who hadn't served and the flu epidemic called in all available resources) or he may have had a right to treatment under some sort of reserve commitment. I'm sure someone will know more about that side.

Craig

 

Many thanks. Yes, this particular person was left disabled following a severe leg injury received in 1917. He resigned his commission the following year and appears to have returned to studies probably in October 1918.

 

Will be very interested to hear whether anyone knows anything more about possible continuing relationships between ex-service men and military hospitals during this period.

 

 

 

 

 

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ss002d6252
19 minutes ago, Clear Bell said:

 

Many thanks. Yes, this particular person was left disabled following a severe leg injury received in 1917. He resigned his commission the following year and appears to have returned to studies probably in October 1918.

  

Will be very interested to hear whether anyone knows anything more about possible continuing relationships between ex-service men and military hospitals during this period.

 

He'd come under the MoP for treatment in that case - there was a huge national set-up for treating men. A search of post-war newspapers for the time will give a lot of information.


Craig

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voltaire60
1 hour ago, Clear Bell said:

 

Many thanks. Yes, this particular person was left disabled following a severe leg injury received in 1917. He resigned his commission the following year and appears to have returned to studies probably in October 1918.

 

Will be very interested to hear whether anyone knows anything more about possible continuing relationships between ex-service men and military hospitals during this period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  If you can name the man, then I can look at Kew on my next visit to see if there is anything in his officer file about his ongoing medical needs.  There is a lot of stuff out there but it is scattered. Military hospitals were gradually handed back to civilian use or closed down-effectively just a transfer, as Craig says, to the Pensions people.

   The treatment of war wounded and those who had served and fallen on harder times was the cause of a great deal of bitterness - eg the famous Labour election posters of 1922-"Yesterday the Trenches", "Today Unemployed"- The Royal British Legion itself nowadays the model of respectable behaviour was formed out of several groups of ex-servicemen who were decidedly troublesome.  There are some very good comments about treatment of ex-servicemen at the end of Martin Middlebrook's "First Day on the Somme" which will give a good flavour of this bitterness (the story of being means tested and told to go without by a patronising lady with a well-fed dog on her lap is a particular favourite)

    And if you have You Yube, then the first 2 episodes of the old BBC drama with James Bolam- "When the Boat Comes in" gives a very good,if dramatised, falvour of the attitudes of 1919-20.- " A Land Fit for Heroes and Idiots" and "Empire Day on the Slagheap"

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Moonraker

Not that close to the case cited above, but: one Australian soldier died at Fovant Military Hospital as late as February 2, 1920; he was William Henry Symons 6895, who was treated at Hurdcott Hospital during the war, then stayed on in Britain after the Armistice to study in Edinburgh (on reduced pay as a member of the Australian Imperial Force). He contracted tubercular disease of the lung and was admitted to Fovant Military Hospital on December 19, 1919.

 

(Fovant and Hurdcott were major Australian camps west of Salisbury from 1916 and the former a major demob centre for British troops, as well as a holding base for Australians awaiting repatriation.)

 

Moonraker

 

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Terry_Reeves
Posted (edited)

Clear Bell

 

This book covers the rehabilitation of  disabled servicemen in Britain and Germany. :

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Come-Home-Disabled-1914-1939/dp/0520220080

 

It is very well researched and a good read. 

 

Interestingly, some universities in the UK issued "war degrees". Those undergraduates who undertook degrees with several parts could be awarded degrees having successfully completed some parts. The rules differed depending on the university. 

 

Units of the Royal Engineers Special Brigade started courses in late 1918,  in a range of subjects for their men, prior to demobilisation. These can be found in the relevant war diaries.

 

TR

Edited by Terry_Reeves

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Clear Bell
2 hours ago, voltaire60 said:

 

  If you can name the man, then I can look at Kew on my next visit to see if there is anything in his officer file about his ongoing medical needs.  There is a lot of stuff out there but it is scattered. Military hospitals were gradually handed back to civilian use or closed down-effectively just a transfer, as Craig says, to the Pensions people.

   The treatment of war wounded and those who had served and fallen on harder times was the cause of a great deal of bitterness - eg the famous Labour election posters of 1922-"Yesterday the Trenches", "Today Unemployed"- The Royal British Legion itself nowadays the model of respectable behaviour was formed out of several groups of ex-servicemen who were decidedly troublesome.  There are some very good comments about treatment of ex-servicemen at the end of Martin Middlebrook's "First Day on the Somme" which will give a good flavour of this bitterness (the story of being means tested and told to go without by a patronising lady with a well-fed dog on her lap is a particular favourite)

    And if you have You Yube, then the first 2 episodes of the old BBC drama with James Bolam- "When the Boat Comes in" gives a very good,if dramatised, falvour of the attitudes of 1919-20.- " A Land Fit for Heroes and Idiots" and "Empire Day on the Slagheap"

Hi

 

Sorry, should have made clear that I am broadening out my research from this one individual,  2 L/T Albert Wallace Peters (Tank Corps), his particular discharge due to disablement and what happened next to him. Admittedly, his was the first case where I began considering discharge more generally, because I noticed where he had been during his final days long after his injury and treatment.  BTW., his service file at the TNA is well-worth a look if you are interested. I have only looked at it once to complete a biographical sketch for a commemorative web site, but anyone interested in treatment and various medical facilities may be able to glean more from the documents than I was able to at the time.  If you decide to take a look, I would be very interested to know what you think.

 

The WFA had an article in it's last magazine about the recruitment and discharge of doctors and the effect this had on medical training, as well as for civilian and military hospitals. It has given me some pointers about how to follow up the military processes the students I have been researching might have been subject to. But I am hoping that the GWF can give me a nudge in the direction of more general reading before I get into specifics.

 

I will certainly look at Martin Middlebrook's account and the YouTube of "When the Boat comes in".

 

Thanks for info and advice.

 

 

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Clear Bell
12 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Clear Bell

 

This book covers the rehabilitation of  disabled servicemen in Britain and Germany. :

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/War-Come-Home-Disabled-1914-1939/dp/0520220080

 

It is very well researched and a good read. 

 

Interestingly, some universities in the UK issued "war degrees". Those undergraduates who undertook degrees with several parts could be awarded degrees having successfully completed some parts. The rules differed depending on the university. 

 

Units of the Royal Engineers Special Brigade started courses in late 1918,  in a range of subjects for their men, prior to demobilisation. These can be found in the relevant war diaries.

 

TR

 

 

Hi Terry

 

Thanks for this. Yes, I was wondering about 'war degrees' too.

 

During my research I've come across letters from former students wanting to return to their studies. Of course, they are mostly concerned about how to obtain any scholarships, and other grants, they had formerly been awarded. And some of the files I have consulted contain copies of various Board of Education forms, in response to their filling in a Form O 13, which was presumably a request from the the former student to them to reinstate the award. The respone forms that have been retained in their student files tend confirm they can have their award, ready for them to return to study.

 

But I haven't yet begun to look at these in any methodical way, but if I can match any of these with various regiments/batallions and war diaries I suppose I might find out those who had some courses as you mention the Royal Engineers Special Grade provided.

 

Gulp.

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Clear Bell
22 minutes ago, Terry_Reeves said:

 

 

Thanks for this as well. Just had to nip out and my email response time (and order) has gone a bit wayward.

 

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Terry_Reeves
Posted (edited)

Clear Bell

 

The unit courses are listed but not attached to individuals. I am away from home at the moment  but I can provide a list of the courses that were provided to help ease men back into civilian life. I should make clear  this was not army wide. Give me me a couple of days.

 

TR

Edited by Terry_Reeves

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voltaire60

You might find this book interesting-it was remaindered a couple of years back so there are copies kicking around at reasonable prices:

 

John Galsworthy and Disabled Soldiers of the: Jeffrey S. Reznick
Stock Image

John Galsworthy and Disabled Soldiers of the Great War: With an Illustrated Selection of His Writings (Cultural History of Modern War)

Jeffrey S. Reznick

Published by Manchester University Press (2009)

ISBN 10: 0719077923 ISBN 13: 9780719077920

New
 
Hardcover

Quantity Available: 1

 

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Clear Bell
1 hour ago, voltaire60 said:

You might find this book interesting-it was remaindered a couple of years back so there are copies kicking around at reasonable prices:

 

John Galsworthy and Disabled Soldiers of the: Jeffrey S. Reznick
Stock Image

John Galsworthy and Disabled Soldiers of the Great War: With an Illustrated Selection of His Writings (Cultural History of Modern War)

Jeffrey S. Reznick

Published by Manchester University Press (2009)

ISBN 10: 0719077923 ISBN 13: 9780719077920

New
 
Hardcover

Quantity Available: 1

 

  Thanks for this. 

 

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Clear Bell

Does anyone know of any books looking at demobbing of the services in general, apart from those focussing on those suffering disablement as a resulf of the conflict?

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Maureene

If you are invested in the situation in India, see 

Mutiny in India in 1919 by Julian Putkowski marxists.org.  By March 1919, the Territorials were disillusioned, and their increasingly bitter complaints featured in a series of anonymous letters that were published by the Bombay Chronicle. As well as complaining generally about the corruption and snobbery they had experienced during their service in India, the correspondents drew attention to the slow pace at which they were being shipped back to Britain by the Army.

 

Cheers

Maureen

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Black Maria

The book  ' A Nation in Arms' by Beckett & Simpson has a couple of pages about demobilisation , but it also lists a publication called

' Military Demobilisation in Great Britain' by S.R Graubard  which they say is the best account of demobilisation . It looks like it may be

available to read free on-line .

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Maureene
1 hour ago, Black Maria said:

 a publication called ' Military Demobilisation in Great Britain' by S.R Graubard  which they say is the best account of demobilisation . It looks like it may be

available to read free on-line .

 

JOURNAL ARTICLE
Military Demobilization in Great Britain Following the First World War
Stephen Richards Graubard
The Journal of Modern History
Vol. 19, No. 4 (Dec., 1947), pp. 297-311
Read online for free if you register with jstor.org
 
Cheers
Maureen
 

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Clear Bell
Quote

 

Thanks for all these suggestions and especially for the link to the journal article. Apart from going through it I hope I'll be able to locate any citations to it in other work - so that may give me some pointers to other texts about this subject, then I will decide how to narrow my focus down to those returning to studies.

 

Shall get downloading, reading and ordering asap.

 

As usual GWF contributors have been very generous with ideas and pointers. Much appreciated.

 

 

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johntaylor

Hi Clear Bell, I've just caught up with this discussion and was interested to find out more about 2nd Lieut Albert Peters. I had no idea he was such a promising artist, and have just read your excellent biography of him on the Royal College of Art website at http://remembrance.rca.ac.uk/?page_id=1057  I researched the attack in which he was wounded for my book Deborah and the War of the Tanks, which tells the story of two tanks with the number D51 in the Battles of Ypres and Cambrai. The first of these tanks attacked to the right of F Battalion on August 22, 1917, so their stories are closely linked.

 

The only point to add is that the battalion records show Peters' tank F42 Faun was supported by F46 Fay rather than F49 Fairy.  However the outcome was the same, since virtually all the tanks from F Battalion were ditched or destroyed during the attack with many of their crew becoming casualties.

 

Regarding Albert Peters, he was obviously a fine draughtsman and I wonder if any of this work has survived?

 

All the best, John

 

 

 

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Clear Bell
2 hours ago, johntaylor said:

Hi Clear Bell, I've just caught up with this discussion and was interested to find out more about 2nd Lieut Albert Peters. I had no idea he was such a promising artist, and have just read your excellent biography of him on the Royal College of Art website at http://remembrance.rca.ac.uk/?page_id=1057  I researched the attack in which he was wounded for my book Deborah and the War of the Tanks, which tells the story of two tanks with the number D51 in the Battles of Ypres and Cambrai. The first of these tanks attacked to the right of F Battalion on August 22, 1917, so their stories are closely linked.

 

The only point to add is that the battalion records show Peters' tank F42 Faun was supported by F46 Fay rather than F49 Fairy.  However the outcome was the same, since virtually all the tanks from F Battalion were ditched or destroyed during the attack with many of their crew becoming casualties.

 

Regarding Albert Peters, he was obviously a fine draughtsman and I wonder if any of this work has survived?

 

All the best, John

 

 

 

Hello,

 

Thanks very much for correction! I will ask to have the tank name and number changed asap. Not sure how that got muddled up! I look forward to reading your book: I found the whole operation very difficult to get to grips with - except what happened to Fray Bentos and the whole thing sounds terrifying.

 

As far as I am aware the only surviving examples of Albert's work are the fine chalk drawings of Prof. Frank Short held by the National Portrait Gallery: https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portraitExtended/mw05780/Frank-Short

 

and those for his book on The Zoo: a Sketch Book published by A&C Black (very long link from abebooks.co.uk):

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1276862167&searchurl=yrh%3D1916%26yrl%3D1913%26sortby%3D100%26tn%3Dsketches%26an%3DPeters%26recentlyadded%3Dall&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

 

But of course, who ever donated the Short portraits to the NPG in 1950 may have had more of his work and a keen researcher could dig around and find out who this H.E. Palfrey was......

 

BTW: I did not find any document in Albert's file about the College returning work to his family after his death - this doesn't mean it didn't happen. This would not be that unusual - there are quite a few instances in other student files noting the College arranging to have work and all kinds of property returned from lockers and studios. But it could be this was done earlier in the war when he first joined up. Just no idea.....I wonder if there are any clues to where any more of his work might be if there are any family papers related to Professor Frank Short....After all, it seems quite unusual for a Professor to have sat for a student in this way, and for that student's portraits of him to have been kept down the years, doesn't it? 

 

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rob carman

image.png.4074c5acc30658708db7a938d7103454.pngThis might be relevant.

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Clear Bell
8 minutes ago, rob carman said:

image.png.4074c5acc30658708db7a938d7103454.pngThis might be relevant.

Hi

 

Many thanks for this. I've been looking through the PhD listing on the British Library website.... slow going trying to pin down the right search terms!

 

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johntaylor
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Clear Bell said:

Hello,

 

Thanks very much for correction! I will ask to have the tank name and number changed asap. Not sure how that got muddled up! I look forward to reading your book: I found the whole operation very difficult to get to grips with - except what happened to Fray Bentos and the whole thing sounds terrifying.

 

As far as I am aware the only surviving examples of Albert's work are the fine chalk drawings of Prof. Frank Short held by the National Portrait Gallery: https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portraitExtended/mw05780/Frank-Short

 

and those for his book on The Zoo: a Sketch Book published by A&C Black (very long link from abebooks.co.uk):

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1276862167&searchurl=yrh%3D1916%26yrl%3D1913%26sortby%3D100%26tn%3Dsketches%26an%3DPeters%26recentlyadded%3Dall&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2

 

But of course, who ever donated the Short portraits to the NPG in 1950 may have had more of his work and a keen researcher could dig around and find out who this H.E. Palfrey was......

 

BTW: I did not find any document in Albert's file about the College returning work to his family after his death - this doesn't mean it didn't happen. This would not be that unusual - there are quite a few instances in other student files noting the College arranging to have work and all kinds of property returned from lockers and studios. But it could be this was done earlier in the war when he first joined up. Just no idea.....I wonder if there are any clues to where any more of his work might be if there are any family papers related to Professor Frank Short....After all, it seems quite unusual for a Professor to have sat for a student in this way, and for that student's portraits of him to have been kept down the years, doesn't it? 

 

 

Thanks for this further information, and the links you have sent to his work certainly confirm his promise, and underline the tragedy of his early death.

 

The best way to find any other material by him would probably be to trace his descendants - when researching the book on Deborah D51 we did this for around 100 families in D Battalion of the Tank Corps, but didn't investigate the other battalions. In this case I see from the 1911 Census that Albert had a brother and two sisters, who would probably have inherited any of his work - in fact I see that his younger sister, whose married name was Phyllis Millicent Edith Foxley, died as recently as 1993 in Sidmouth, Devon.

 

Incidentally you may have seen this link to Albert's family grave: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/172074288/albert-wallace-peters

 

Many thanks for drawing my attention to this fascinating story!

 

All the best, John

 

 

 

Edited by johntaylor

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