ralphjd Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 A Rochdale newspaper article plus photo dated 17 6 1916 states that this lad serving with the Manchesters has died in a hospital in India, NO record of him on any site that I can find, usual suspects yield nothing at all. Can you help out there. ? Thanks. Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 1 hour ago, ralphjd said: A Rochdale newspaper article plus photo dated 17 6 1916 states that this lad serving with the Manchesters has died in a hospital in India, NO record of him on any site that I can find, usual suspects yield nothing at all. Can you help out there. ? Thanks. Ralph. Can't see anything obvious in the effects records. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 Strange Nothing on General CWGC search for Manchesters in India (there are only 37, and nothing looks even close to a misprint) Here is the actual article, which you have, so that other readers can pick up any clues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 Assuming the article is correct. So, we're looking at a regular who was placed on the reserve and then recalled in 1914 - if he served 13 years before joining the reserve & was recalled in 1914 then this means he must have joined the army in 1901 or before. If he was 30 in 1916, then he was born in 1886 - indicating that he likely joined the army at age 14. It also means that he would have still been a serving soldier in 1911 to have gotten in the 13 years of regular service. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 11 July , 2019 Admin Share Posted 11 July , 2019 As he was "called up" so early a search of Boer War Records might be of use? J Crowther 3049 served in the 1st Battalion of the Manchester Regiment in that prior conflict, being slightly wounded. (Also served with 19th Mounted Infantry). No record of same number in any ww1 records I can find. No other Manchester Regiment candidates found. But there are another 7 J Crowthers who did serve in the prior conflict in other regiments. 2 can be ruled out as died in 1901/2. The rest seem to have the wrong first name or are too old. Can only find 2 Crowthers in CWGC in India, neither J(ames). Next step to check Medical records for 1914.... Only to find FMP don't have any for 1914...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 Thanks for posting the original article. He could have been in the 1st Garrison Battalion, Manchester Regiment which were stationed in India March 1916 to July 1918. This also fits with him being wounded, so maybe medical cat B1 or lower. 1st Garrison Battalion The Manchester Regiment Formed at Knowsley Park, Liverpool in September 1915 and commanded by Lieutenant Colonel H W K Bretherton, a retired Territorial Force officer. Composed of officers and men permanently unfit for active service but considered fit for garrison duty overseas. They left Prescot at 9.15pm on 24 February 1916, arriving Devonport at 10 am the following day. Sailed at 4.30pm on board Kinfauns with an escort of two destroyers. On 5 March they passed Alexandria and then on into the Suez Canal. Arrived Bombay, India on 14 March 1916. Moved to Fyzabad where they stayed until end July 1918. To Singapore arriving on 3 August 1918 until December 1919. A reinforcement detachment left Singapore on 5 August and arrived at Hong Kong on the 9th. This detachment left Hong Kong on 3 September and sailed for Vladivostok, where they disembarked on 11 September 1918. The detachment arrived at Spasshoe in Siberia on 12 September where they were to join the 25th Garrison Battalion of the Middlesex Regiment. On 27 November 1919, Colonel R Ashworth and the officers paid a visit from Singapore to Johore where they were entertained by the officers of the Johore Forces commanded by Colonel Hamid. The Regent of Johore presided and the Manchester 's were given a hearty send-off prior to their return to the UK. The Battalion returned to UK in December 1919 and was disbanded on 27 February 1920. https://www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom/history/garrison1914 This thread also gives more details of The !st Garrison Battalion The only other Battalion of the Manchesters who served in India or as part of an Indian unit, was the !st (Regular) Battalion, who were in India at the outbreak of WW1 as part of Part of the 8th (Jullundur) Brigade in 3rd (Lahore) Division but were in France from Sept 1914, and seem to have remained in that Division throughout the war, but did not return to India. Seems there are two websites for research into the manchesters: http://www.themanchesters.org/garr batt.htm http://www.themanchesters1914-18.org/regimental-history.php This last one says 22 men of the 1st Garrison Bn died in WW1. Its possible that 19 of them are the men of the Manchesters listed on the Madras 1914-1918 Memorial, which features in the CWGC record of James Duffy !st Garrison Bn, Manchester Regt, died 27.6.1918 and buried at Cawnpore Cantonment. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1465546/duffy,-james-patrick-j./ Regimental Archives of The Manchesters are at Tameside Archives & I think a saw a book listed which covered casualties of all the Battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 Lets hope we can find this man, as he seems a candidate for rememberence at CWGC via In From The Cold & one of the many that slipped through the net post war. As others have said the article implies that he was in the Army Reserve & mobilised/called up from there in August 1914. He is not at 54 Hope Street, Rochdale in the 1911 Census. On that date it is occupied by: Denis MULCAHY head age 28 labourer in Iron Foundry born Co Tip. Ireland Ellen MULCAHY wife age 23 a ring spinner, born Edinburgh john ANDERSON father-in-law age 55 tailor Journeyman born Edinburgh The newspaper article fits with the 2nd (Regular) Bn Manchesters record rather than the 1st Bn, which did not arrive in France until late Sept 1914. 2nd Manchesters: August 1914 : at the Curragh. Part of 14th Brigade in 5th Division. 17 August 1914 ; landed at Le Havre. 30 December 1915 : moved with the Brigade to 32nd Division. There is also a recently complied Roll of honour at Rochdale: https://link4life.org/news/494-roll-of-honour-remembers-our-fallen-heroes Some Indian Cemetery records are on the Family in British India Society website & hopefully a possible burial at/near Fyzabad is listed there. https://www.fibis.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 1 hour ago, travers61 said: He is not at 54 Hope Street, Rochdale in the 1911 Census. On that date it is occupied by: That would certainly fit with the time-line of him still being in the army so it's perhaps another point in the article's favour. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolymoleyRE Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 (edited) Not saying this man is a shoe in but his trajectory from birth to death is a little odd..but has some parallels. His birth year appears to vary from 1878 to 1886 born in Bacup, not too far from Rochdale I believe. He uses an 1883 YoB to enlist into the Manchester Regiment in 1901, he serves for nearly 13 years and has regular service with the 2nd Battalion. Discharged in 1913, he marries Sarah Anderson in August 1914, and also mobilises into the East Lancs in 1914 YoB 1886 but only sees service at home briefly before being discharged, his pension records have official correspondence appearing to ascertain his whereabouts to issue his an Armlet... He next pops up in 1917 on a burial record for August 1917...YoB 1878??? I have only done an initial backstory, and while there are some similarities/odd coincidences equally there is plenty of contraindications namely his residence and he discharged in 1914. But thought I would call him out as a man of potential interest... Will do some more digging on him. Regards Andy Edited 11 July , 2019 by HolymoleyRE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 July , 2019 Share Posted 12 July , 2019 9 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said: Not saying this man is a shoe in but his trajectory from birth to death is a little odd..but has some parallels. His birth year appears to vary from 1878 to 1886 born in Bacup, not too far from Rochdale I believe. He uses an 1883 YoB to enlist into the Manchester Regiment in 1901, he serves for nearly 13 years and has regular service with the 2nd Battalion. Discharged in 1913, he marries Sarah Anderson in August 1914, and also mobilises into the East Lancs in 1914 YoB 1886 but only sees service at home briefly before being discharged, his pension records have official correspondence appearing to ascertain his whereabouts to issue his an Armlet... He next pops up in 1917 on a burial record for August 1917...YoB 1878??? I have only done an initial backstory, and while there are some similarities/odd coincidences equally there is plenty of contraindications namely his residence and he discharged in 1914. But thought I would call him out as a man of potential interest... Will do some more digging on him. Regards Andy He does seem to tick a lot of the boxes, certainly worth a look as it's not the first (or last one) where the newspapers have been wrong on some points. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 12 July , 2019 Share Posted 12 July , 2019 54 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: it's not the first (or last one) where the newspapers have been wrong on some points. It is not that the newspaper is a little bit wrong, in that scenario the article would be wrong on every point. The newspaper does say he died in India in 1916. And there is a lot of detailed information on him, his age, where he lived, his enlistment date. It is reasonable to assume that this came from his family and was not a piece of research by a local reporter digging through records. It must have come from his family, presumably his wife The only scenarios that I can see that would make "died in hospital in India 1916" wrong, would be if either:- The army mistakenly informed the wife that her husband had died and he had not, but was still alive and serving in India. I cannot find a retraction anywhere Last saw his family in Feb 1915, went back to the front, and for whatever person reasons, his wife gave a false tale to the local paper, to cover up that he had left her. Article in local paper, and nobody locally questions his disappearance at the end of the war. Men disappearing during the war deserting their families was fairly common Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 12 July , 2019 Share Posted 12 July , 2019 Petrie & Co were located at Phoenix Foundry, in Whitehall Street, Rochdale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrie_of_Rochdale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolymoleyRE Posted 12 July , 2019 Share Posted 12 July , 2019 12 hours ago, corisande said: The newspaper does say he died in India in 1916. And there is a lot of detailed information on him, his age, where he lived, his enlistment date. It is reasonable to assume that this came from his family and was not a piece of research by a local reporter digging through records. It must have come from his family, presumably his wife Corisande I agree whole heartedly with all of the above, James Hartley Crowther just seemed to have an odd backstory, and a few too close similarities..... perhaps elaborating on his WW1 service and his wife maintaining a cover story for good form...would a body be brought back from India....?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 12 July , 2019 Share Posted 12 July , 2019 1 minute ago, HolymoleyRE said: perhaps elaborating on his WW1 service and his wife maintaining a cover story for good form...would a body be brought back from India....?? I would assume that burials in India were covered by the same rules as in France, that is the bodies never came home, but were buried close to where they died. I feel that if Crowther really had died in an Indian Hospital, then there would be a CWGC entry. Or at least some Indian death record Unless he resumed a post war life with the same name in say Australia, or indeed Glasgow, then I don't think that we can crack this one One could throw money at it with getting certificates. We have the Hope St address, and the fact that he was married with a child. Getting a wadge of Marriage Certs and Births in Rochdale might strike lucky, and flesh out more clues to try to work on. On the other hand he might not have lived in Hope St when those events took place :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 26 July , 2019 Share Posted 26 July , 2019 On reflection another scenario for his death being reported at a hospital in India exists. Not being able to substantiate this article is frustrating, esp if we have a man who has missed being remembered at CWGC. The option that seemed possible (although no CWGC record) before was that at death he was serving in the 1st Garrison Battalion of the Manchesters, who were permanently stationed in India March 1916- August 1918. But have recently read elsewhere on this forum of a wounded/ill soldier serving in Mesopotamia being sent by hospital ship to Bombay. This man died soon after embarking, was buried at sea & remembered on the Basra memorial. If James Crowther was similarly on a hospital ship, he could have served in Mesopotamia with the 1st Battalion Manchesters. 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment August 1914 : in Jullundur, India. Part of the 8th (Jullundur) Brigade in 3rd (Lahore) Division. This Division left India on 29 August 1914 as part of the Indian Corps and moved to France, landing at Marseilles on 26 September 1914. It served on the Western Front until leaving France on 10 December 1915, whereupon it moved to Mesopotamia, landing at Basra on 8 January 1916. The Division moved to Egypt in March 1918 and later moved into Palestine. Although I realise this is only speculation and there is no record on CWGC of any Crowthers in the Manchesters dying in India, this could be his Great war record in the Manchester regiment: Aug 1914 mobilised from Army Reserve (?into 2nd Battalion) 17th August 1914 2nd Battn land at La Harve 23rd August 1914 was in action by this date Nov 1914 returned to England wounded Feb 1915 returned to the front ? Transferred to 1st Battalion (in Uk or France) late 1915 transfered to another theatre of war ? 10th Dec 1915 with 1st battalion when it left France 8th Jan 1916 1st battalion arrive Mesopotamia ? injured /ill & sent to India by ship June 1916 reported as dying in hospital in India. or: transfered to 1st garrison Bn in France before their posting to India. transfered to 1st garrison bn in India 1916, if too ill to return to Mesopotamia & active service. This is not an easy one to resolve, as the other records and enquiries to be made Rochdale Roll of Honour, FIBIS etc are widespread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 26 February , 2020 Share Posted 26 February , 2020 (edited) travers61 says "But have recently read elsewhere on this forum of a wounded/ill soldier serving in Mesopotamia being sent by hospital ship to Bombay." That's very true. In 1916 troops were regularly evacuated from the Mesopotamia Campaign and out to India. At this time the hospital ships HMHS 'Varela' and 'Vasna' were commissioned to run constantly between Basra and Bombay on the five-day trip …. which perhaps doesn't help much in this case but I would say I have a couple of instances where soldiers are recorded as died in Mesopotamia but were buried in India. Edited 26 February , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 February , 2020 Share Posted 26 February , 2020 Mespot came under the auspices of the Indian Government, not UK, so it would make sense to remove injured and sick to India. Plus it would be quicker to sail to Bombay than to the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 27 February , 2020 Share Posted 27 February , 2020 Thank you Tulloch & Steven for confirming this possibility & that Mespot was under the Indian government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 27 February , 2020 Share Posted 27 February , 2020 (edited) HoleyMoleyRE puts up a good point regarding 7260 Cpl James Hartley Crowther (born Bacup 1883, served in Manchester Regiment 1901-1913) who became 12852 LSgt James Hartley Crowther (7 ELR 29 Sep 14 - 24 Dec 14/medically discharged). We have to eliminate possibilities and I reckon he's a confirmed a "near miss". The Yorkshire Pioneer East Lancashire News of 31 August 1917 nails it further…….. "DRILL INSTRUCTOR'S DEATH AND FUNERAL. The death occurred on Sunday last, at his residence, 44, Mosley Street, of Staff-Sergt. Instructor James H. Crowther, eldest son of the late Mr. Wm. Crowther, of Buck Street, Barnoldswick. The deceased had served five years in the Manchester Regiment, and seven years on the Reserve, when he was discharged in 1913 with the rank of Corporal. He re-enlisted on Aug. 5th, 1914, and joined the East Lancashire Regiment, in which he was given sergeant’s rank, obtaining his discharge owing to heart affection, after seven months’ service. He was 39 years of age, and leaves a wife and one young child. Both before and since the present war Sergeant Crowther took a deep interest in the Boy Scout and Cadet movements, and as instructor to both sections exerted a powerful influence over the boys, amongst whom he was held in high esteem. Latterly he had also acted in the capacity of instructor to the Special Constabulary. The funeral at Gill Church on Wednesday afternoon was of a semi-military character, the cortège being preceded by the local Cadets with muffled drums and reversed arms, followed by the Special Constables, wearing their regulation caps and armlets. The Cadets were in charge of Captain Lord (officer commanding for the Keighley district) and Captain F. Baldwin, and the Specials in charge of Inspector Killeen and Mr. F.H. Slater (section leader).The burial service was conducted by the Rev. J. Lord, curate. Wreaths were placed upon the coffin from the officers of the Cadet Corps and the Special Constabulary." The mystery continues - service in the 1 or 2 Manchesters in 1914 would have attracted the 14 Star/Clasp and I've turned up a blank there as well. Edited 4 March , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 4 March , 2020 Share Posted 4 March , 2020 My initial interest was based on the possibility that we might have another IWGC/CWGC "non-commemoration" here - I've three to date in the mighty former Borough of Rawtenstall so the gloomy expectation is that the neighbouring former Borough of Bacup (or indeed former Borough of Haslingden) should be little different. However, I don't think we have a "non-commemoration" in this case. The rough location, name, age, pre-war service in the Manchesters, absence on duty late 1914 all fit in with James Hartley Crowther on discharge from the Regular Army in 1913. From that point on there is absolutely no hard evidence (Regt accounts, MIC/MICs, SDGW, CWGC, Pension or Soldiers Effects) of any James Hartley serving/wounded in France in 1914 and ending up dying in a hospital in India. Agreed, it could also be a figment of the imagination of a "penny one liner" who was short on copy but surely it smacks too much of a first hand account? I'd also ask anyone following this up to read the June 1916 cutting and "compare and contrast" (remember that one!) with the several 1917 articles collected on the excellent "Craven's Part in the Great War" article on James Hartley Crowther at: www.cpgw.org.uk/soldier-records/james-hartley-crowther/ Read the articles in the light of geography - Rochdale is some 6 miles south of Bacup (1916 article) and Barnoldswick is some 12 miles north of Bacup (1917 articles). The accounts look remarkably like the same bloke interwoven with two very different women/children. Could it be that age old story of a pre-wife Sarah relationship/child neatly ended, in this case, by a introducing a "death" in India which was then innocently reported to the press. Just speculation on my part but I'll follow this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 4 May , 2020 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2020 (edited) I thought the name rang a bell when I posted his name earlier, but for the life of couldnt find the original thread, getting too old for this lark. The man will have to remain a mystery. Thanks to all. Ralph. Edited 4 May , 2020 by ralphjd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 4 May , 2020 Share Posted 4 May , 2020 5 minutes ago, ralphjd said: I thought the name rang a bell when I posted his name earlier, but for the life of couldnt find the original thread, getting too old for this lark. The man will have to remain a mystery. Thanksto all. Ralph. ……… and nothing further to report from me Ralph - a mystery he remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 May , 2020 Share Posted 4 May , 2020 I can only offer up this chap, and perhaps the newspaper quoting 13 years is a typo and should read 8. Siddal is about 20 miles from Rochdale. Dave Name: James Crowther Gender: Male Birth Date: abt 1886 Birth Place: Siddal, Yorkshire, England Age: 22 Document Year: 1908 Regimental Number: 166 Regiment Name: 2nd West R Brigade R F A Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 4 May , 2020 Share Posted 4 May , 2020 23 minutes ago, davidbohl said: I can only offer up this chap, and perhaps the newspaper quoting 13 years is a typo and should read 8. Siddal is about 20 miles from Rochdale. Dave Name: James Crowther Gender: Male Birth Date: abt 1886 Birth Place: Siddal, Yorkshire, England Age: 22 Document Year: 1908 Regimental Number: 166 Regiment Name: 2nd West R Brigade R F A Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation #166 Crowther was already serving when he attested to the TF in 1908 so he's a possibility (The low number was a suggestion, as was the April 1908 attestation, but his records also confirm he was serving at that point in the 2nd W. Riding RGA Volunteers). EDIT Invalided out with Epilepsy in Dec 1914 anyway Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 4 May , 2020 Share Posted 4 May , 2020 Strangely the 1911 Census has him in Siddal as William James but he is married with a 10 month child Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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