Nutting Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 (edited) I am eyeing the potential purchase, direct from South Africa, of a Mk.I, type II, Patt.88 bayonet marked '4.CH'. From the official list of abbreviations, CH should be the Cheshire Regiment. From what I can see, the 2nd [Regular] and 3rd [Militia] battalions of the Cheshires served in SA in the 2nd Boer War. Was there ever a 4th Cheshires? If not Cheshire Regiment, could it be [something] Horse? Among the colonial units there was a Cullinan's Horse wherein Trooper No. 35 was George Beck. Thoughts, comments? Nigel. Edited 10 July , 2019 by Nutting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 I’d go for 4th Cheshire’s....a territorial unit, cant find a South African link but that piece possibly went to Gallipoli......https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/cheshire-regiment/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 Pre 1908 there was a 4th volunteer battalion.....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_units_of_the_British_Army_Territorial_Force_1908 Screenshot from above link... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutting Posted 10 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2019 20 minutes ago, Dave66 said: Pre 1908 there was a 4th volunteer battalion.....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_units_of_the_British_Army_Territorial_Force_1908 Screenshot from above link... Dave, Got it. If the bayonet is currently in SA I suspect it never made it to Gallipoli, but there were no 4th Cheshire’s in SA, so with the rack/service number being just 2 digits, I must admit that I favour a colonial unit. N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 Quite possibly, but I wouldn’t dismiss the Cheshire’s completely as they went to Egypt straight after Gallipoli. found this MK11 marked up to the 7th with very similar style of stamping...http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/viewphoto.php?x=4 Best of luck with the research, Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutting Posted 10 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 July , 2019 24 minutes ago, Dave66 said: Quite possibly, but I wouldn’t dismiss the Cheshire’s completely as they went to Egypt straight after Gallipoli. found this MK11 marked up to the 7th with very similar style of stamping...http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/viewphoto.php?x=4 Best of luck with the research, Dave. Dave, Thanks - I enjoy our exchanges of information! N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 Nigel, If 4.CH were to relate to a unit such as Cullinan’s Horse, wouldn’t you expect it to be 4.C.H. ? (as ShippingSteel noted (post 4) for C.G.I. in the discussion of the Pattern 1903 — Indian Markings a couple of weeks ago). Anyway, an interesting history for it. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 One problem to be aware of is how these bayonets do move around from when first issued to where they appear for sale (and in collections!) now. Here in Turkey I sometimes see Swedish M.1897 bayonets for sale but the Turkish army never - to the best of my knowledge - ever used the matching rifle or that bayonet. And think of all the German Ersatz ones that turn up in the USA, shipped there in bulk in the 1970's. In my own case if, e.g., I find a P.1888 here that is marked for a unit that was at Gallipoli, then I would conclude a good (50%) chance it has been here since 1915. But if marked for a unit that was never here, then who knows what the back story is. So in the case of the one in the OPost, if marked for a unit that certainly served in SA, then a reasonable chance it has been there since the turn of the last century; but if not, then... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutting Posted 11 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2019 10 hours ago, JMB1943 said: Nigel, If 4.CH were to relate to a unit such as Cullinan’s Horse, wouldn’t you expect it to be 4.C.H. ? (as ShippingSteel noted (post 4) for C.G.I. in the discussion of the Pattern 1903 — Indian Markings a couple of weeks ago). Anyway, an interesting history for it. Regards, JMB JMB, Yes, it should indeed be 4 C.H. if stamped as per regs. I’m working on the basis that a Patt.88 made its way to SA as kit issued to a unit involved in the Boer War (no guarantee, but highly likely) hence I’m casting around for a ‘suitable’ unit, but I’m not going to force a match! Thanks for your comment. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutting Posted 11 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2019 3 hours ago, trajan said: One problem to be aware of is how these bayonets do move around from when first issued to where they appear for sale (and in collections!) now. Here in Turkey I sometimes see Swedish M.1897 bayonets for sale but the Turkish army never - to the best of my knowledge - ever used the matching rifle or that bayonet. And think of all the German Ersatz ones that turn up in the USA, shipped there in bulk in the 1970's. In my own case if, e.g., I find a P.1888 here that is marked for a unit that was at Gallipoli, then I would conclude a good (50%) chance it has been here since 1915. But if marked for a unit that was never here, then who knows what the back story is. So in the case of the one in the OPost, if marked for a unit that certainly served in SA, then a reasonable chance it has been there since the turn of the last century; but if not, then... Julian Julian All true. It would be nice to find a match in this case, but if none is forthcoming, then that’s life! Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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