Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

stripeyman

Re-enactors

Recommended Posts

stripeyman

In the prevailing conditions in this country as regards 'knife crime' are re-enactors allowed to carry bayonets, on their weapons or even in a frog or scabbard.? I am not or ever been a re-enactor......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MrSwan

From experience in another place, carrying an article with a blade or point in a place is an offence under s.139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. It is an unusual offence, described as "strict liability", as the onus is on the defendant to prove just reason for carrying the article (ie guilty until proven innocent).

 

Exceptions are permitted for work tools, for religious purposes (eg the Sikh kirpan), or ceremonial reasons (the bagpipers skean dhu). Re-enactors should be excluded, if in uniform and in transit to/from or performing (?) at an event.

 

A bayonet in the bottom of a sports bag while in mufti is another matter...

 

Jonathan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven Broomfield
2 hours ago, MrSwan said:

 

 

Exceptions are permitted for ... ceremonial reasons (the bagpipers skean dhu).

 

Jonathan

 

I am (I hope reliably) informed that it's not just pipers. I would certainly observe, if not, that Her Majesty's Constabularies (various) are remarkably lax!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonraker

Depends, perhaps, on whether the bayonets are carried only for ceremonial purposes. When it comes to mock battles, re-enactment groups appear to be quite strict about blades and points being blunted and protected.

 

Back in the early 70s a float in the Basingstoke Carnival featured "cowboys" and "cowgirls" flourishing toy guns, alarming one member of the public. A Special Constable checked the weapons out. I had to restrain a smile as he diligently checked the chambers of a cap pistol.

 

Occasionally I've thought of carrying a sheathed billhook on som of my country walks, which would probably be justifiable - until I ventured into a built-up area.

 

Moonraker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MrSwan
Posted (edited)

Cut out and keep - chapter and verse: Criminal Justice Act, 1988

 

s 139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place.E+W

(1)  Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.

 

(2)  Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.

 

(3)  This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

 

(4)  It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

 

(5)  Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—

 

      (a) for use at work;

      (b) for religious reasons; or

      (c) as part of any national costume.

 

(6)  A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable-

     (a)  on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both;

     (b)  on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding [four] years, or a fine, or both.]

 

(6A)  Subsection (6B) applies where—

     (a)  a person is convicted of an offence under subsection (1) by a court in England and Wales,

     (b)  the offence was committed after this subsection is commenced, and

     (c)  when the offence was committed, the person was aged 16 or over and had at least one relevant conviction (see section 139AZA).

 

(6B)  Where this subsection applies, the court must impose an appropriate custodial sentence (with or without a fine) unless the court is of the opinion that there are particular circumstances which—

      (a)  relate to the offence, to the previous offence or to the offender, and

      (b)  would make it unjust to do so in all the circumstances.

 

(6C)  In this section “ appropriate custodial sentence ” means—

      (a)  in the case of a person who is aged 18 or over when convicted, a sentence of imprisonment for a term of at least 6 months;

      (b)  in the case of a person who is aged at least 16 but under 18 when convicted, a detention and training order of at least 4 months.

 

(6D)  In considering whether it is of the opinion mentioned in subsection (6B) in the case of a person aged 16 or 17, the court must have regard to its duty under section 44 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 (general considerations).

 

(6E)Where—

     (a)  an appropriate custodial sentence has been imposed on a person under subsection (6B), and

     (b)  a relevant conviction without which subsection (6B) would not have applied has been subsequently set aside on appeal,

notice of appeal against the sentence may be given at any time within 28 days from the date on which the conviction was set aside (despite anything in section 18 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (initiating procedure)).

 

(6F)  Where an offence is found to have been committed over a period of two or more days, or at some time during a period of two or more days, it shall be taken for the purposes of this section to have been committed on the last of those days.

 

(6G)  In relation to times before the coming into force of paragraph 180 of Schedule 7 to the Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000, the reference in subsection (6C)(a) to a sentence of imprisonment, in relation to an offender aged under 21 at the time of conviction, is to be read as a reference to a sentence of detention in a young offender institution.]

 

(7)  In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.

 

(8)  This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done before it comes into force.

Edited by MrSwan
Formatting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonraker

My environmental volunteer groups carry a veritable arsenal of bladed tools, including billhooks, sickles, slashers and Silky saws (these last are so vicious that they have to be kept sheathed when not being used). We often work in public places: in parks, on rights-of-way and at schools (some for young people with special needs).

 

Hopefully we are covered by paragraph 4 above and, even more hopefully, no police person would think of charging us for an offence. There is, though, the matter of those of us who, on occasion, walk through an urban area to a site or rendezvous point.

 

Moonraker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug504

On my weekly visit to my shooting club,  sometimes with smle and associated bayonet, I frequently pass members of I presume a sealed knot society (marquis of Newcastle Foote?) They’re normally carrying an assortment of swords, bill hooks, bows and very long pikestaff’s. We pass with the usual smile and nod, wonder how we all fare? Presume we all have “good reason”! I’ve also seen the odd half dozen Vikings in the locality complete with swords, shields and axes. The amazing bit is the lack of attention they draw, but being in the North East we’ve had numerous dealings with vikings in the past and who’d argue with a well armed Viking?

 

Doug.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave1418

Hi

there’s a clear differential between para 4 and 5 the latter giving specific defences the other with the burden of proof being on the person in possession.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven Broomfield

(5) (c) covers it for me. :thumbsup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stripeyman

What interesting comments, thank you.

I ask as a friend of over 30 years and his son,23, attended Tankfest on Saturday 29 June. Whilst queing to enter they were subject to a search of their bags by the security firm employed by the Tank Museum. The 23 year old had his nail clippers, the type you would find in quality C.......cracker, taken from him. They were ticketed and he had to collect them later............

Let us think about this small nail grooming item, does it pose a threat to the public at this event ?

Utter bonkers !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GWF1967
39 minutes ago, stripeyman said:

 

Let us think about this small nail grooming item, does it pose a threat to the public at this event ?

Utter bonkers !

It'd give a nasty nip!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonraker
13 hours ago, Doug504 said:

... I’ve also seen the odd half dozen Vikings in the locality complete with swords, shields and axes. The amazing bit is the lack of attention they draw, but being in the North East we’ve had numerous dealings with vikings in the past and who’d argue with a well armed Viking?

I once saw a Roman legionnaire with a sheathed sword on the London  Underground. Perhaps he was the ghost of someone who had garrisoned Londinium almost 2,000 years ago.

 

Moonraker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley

Never ever had an issue with a rifle or a bayonet at designated public events.  However, I wouldn't randomly walk down Portsmouth highstreet with an 07 on my hip.  

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MikeyH
Posted (edited)

A few years ago, our son called into a petrol station on his way home from work.  He

was carrying a 'Leatherman' combination tool in a leather pouch suspended from his

belt.  A policeman spotted this and warned him not to carry it in public again.  The knife

blade is around 3" and the pouch was only visible when he opened his jacket to

access his wallet.

 

Mike.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MikeyH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MrSwan

I seriously doubt that any member of this illustrious forum will ever fall foul of this law!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven Broomfield
4 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Never ever had an issue with a rifle or a bayonet at designated public events.  However, I wouldn't randomly walk down Portsmouth highstreet with an 07 on my hip.  

 

 

 

 

 

Between you and me, I wouldn't randomly walk down Portsmouth High Street, end of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Toby Brayley
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Between you and me, I wouldn't randomly walk down Portsmouth High Street, end of.

 

Very true but the need might arise, say if ones car broke down. 

 

But seriously, The vast majority of people and the Police see it in the context. Being sensible is the key here. Its certainly not as easy as it was a few years back. 

 

I do know of an individual (not a friend of mine, I hasten to add) who was on his way to an event  in full kit with covered rifle. He was stopped and apprehend by the Police for wearing his bayonet, his pleas were not justification. He was taken to the police station and someone had to escort him to the event.  I think the Police handled the matter very well. 

 

Regards

Toby

Edited by Toby Brayley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bombadier

Going through security last month, my case was set aside for special scrutiny. The scanner had picked up the fact that I had a small sword shaped object in my possession. Correct, a kilt pin in the shape of a sword, so sharp that it would have problems cutting through melted butter! She consulted with her superior to check whether I was allowed to have it on the 'plane. Eventually I was given the all clear. 

2 points,

This was at Edinburgh Airport where I assume they see kilt pins regularly. 

On the back if the pin was a large, sharp, safety pin type of thing, about 2 inches long. You could seriously injure somebody with this but it was of no interest to security, 

 

Go figure

 

Nigel 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gunner Bailey

A few years ago someone was stopped from taking a 6 in high model of a soldier (Falklands War) through Heathrow (or Gatwick, can't rmember) Security because the model had a rifle. The model was quite expensive, but the rifle all - 3 inches of it was broken off and put in a suitcase.

 

Can you imagine someone holding up the pilot with a 3 inch rifle and saying take this plane to Disneyland.

 

I sometimes think the world has gone mad.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ServiceRumDiluted

Myself and my climbing partner were once stopped at Luton airport station after flying back from the Alps. The British transport police 'had reason to suspect' that tucked into our belts might be a Swiss army knife, leatherman or similar. They made no comment about the pair of ice axes and multi point crampons we had strapped to the outside of our rucksacks..... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mancpal

With reference to post 10, I had my hand (only) luggage searched because of nail clippers in my wash bag. I asked if I could re-claim them later (more for Devilment) and was told that I couldn't but I was told that I could return to the check-in area and pass them on to "somebody". I think Id have been  arrested far quicker for walking around an airport trying to find a complete stranger who required a second hand pair of nail clippers, who, equally couldn't take them on a flight, I occasionally wonder if my clippers are still doing the rounds between customs and check-in at Dublin Airport.

 

Simon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven Broomfield
15 hours ago, Bombadier said:

 

This was at Edinburgh Airport 

 

 

Nigel 

 

Fair play to Auld Rekkie Airport though: two years ago I was collared there as the operative found a .303 bullt (only the pointy bit at the end, not a whole cartridge and all) in my shoulder bag. Her rather large and forceful supervisor gave me a right going over before confiscating said round (which I had picked up a few weeks' earlier at Cambrai and forgotten). I had travelled from Southampton a week earlier - they had missed the thing entirely, so the guys and (in my case) gals at Edinburgh are a bit more on the ball than down here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gibbo

About 30 years ago, a man in front of me at Edinburgh Airport was wearing Highland dress, apparently including a sgian dubh. He was told initially that he could not take it on board but was allowed to keep it after he showed that it was a bottle opener with the handle of a sgian dubh.

 

Earlier this year, I saw a man on a Glasgow to Edinburgh train who had with him a Dark Ages shield and a large shopping bag whose contents included a sheathed short sword. Over armed for Edinburgh, under armed for Glasgow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Provost

In a previous life, about 20 years ago, I used to run a re-enactment/wargames weekend at a South Coast fortress. In order to drum up custom, the Viking contingent offered to walk to the pier and back handing out leaflets. I rang the local constabulary and asked if they had a problem with unsheathed swords and axes - they didn't. As a result, we gained an extra 100 or so visitors. 

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moonraker

What about the horns on the helmets - which, I understand, the Vikings didn't have, modern depictions not withstanding?

 

Moonraker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...