Sgt.Martin Honan, 4/8320 4th KLR, alias John Dunn

[raydenaes]

I have my great uncle's record of where he is buried and battalion details

HONAN

Initials: M

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment/Service: The King's (Liverpool Regiment)

Unit Text: 4th Bn.

Age: 22

Date of Death: 18/08/1916

Service No: 8320

Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. Honan, of 34, Sherwood St., Liverpool.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: XIV. B. 5.

Cemetery: CATERPILLAR VALLEY CEMETERY, LONGUEVAL

And have the battalion details but I would like to try and find some more personal details of his commitment in the war and where he actually served etc . Does anyone have any ideas on how to fill in the blanks

Would be much appreciated

Regards Ray

[archangel9]

Welcome to the forum Ray,

Medal Index Card -

Theatre of War - (1) France

Qualifying Date - 30/11/1914

4th Bn. The King's (Liverpool Regiment) were a reserve Bn., so he was probably a replacement sent to 1st Battalion -

August 1914 : in Aldershot. Part of 6th Brigade, 2nd Division.

Landed at Le Havre 13 August 1914.

 

John

[grantowi]

Ray,

Welcome to the forum.

From SDGW:

Regiment, Corps etc.: King's (Liverpool Regiment)

Battalion etc.: 4th Battalion.

4.8.14 Seaforth, Liverpool. To Edinburgh?. 6.3.15 landed at Havre and to Sirhind Bde. Lahore Div. at Robecq. 10.11.15 attached 137th Bde. 46th Div. 3.12.15 attached 56th and 58th Bdes. 19th Div. 27.2.16 to 98th Bde. 33rd Div. 11.11.18 98th Bde. 33rd Div. France; Sassegnies, N.W. of Avesnes.

Last name: Honan

First name(s): Martin

Initials: M

Birthplace: Liverpool

Enlisted: Liverpool

Residence: Liverpool

Rank: SERGT.

Number: 8320

Date died: 18 August 1916

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: France & Flanders

His MIC card can be downloaded here for £2 - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

Medal card of Honan, Martin

Corps Regiment No Rank

Liverpool Regiment 8320 Serjeant

Grant

[jay dubaya]

Welcome to the forum Ray

as John has already mentioned, it looks likely that Martin was sent out as a replacement/draft to th 1st Bn and then at sometime he was transferred or was attatched to the 4th Bn. At the time of Martin's death the battalion were part of the 98th Bde, 33rd Division

Entrained at Chocques for Longueau (8/7/16) and from there marched to Rainneville. To Ville-sur-Somme (11/7), Ville-sur-Corbie (12/7), Meaulte (13/7), old German line south of Fricourt (14/7), reserve positions just west of Bazentin-le-Petit Wood (15/7). Relieved 1st Middlesex in front line after attack between High Wood and Martinpuich (15/7). To valley east of Caterpillar Wood (17/7). Moved forward in support and dug in between Flatiron Copse and Sabot Copse (18/7) - enemy counter attacking at Delville Wood. To front line (cross roads north of Bazentin-le-Petit to quarry) (19/7). Relieved and to Caterpillar Wood (20/7) - Dernancourt at 11.15 p.m. Relieved 1/9th Royal Scots south- east side of Mametz Wood (6/8). To Fricourt Wood (7/8), front line south corner of High Wood (13/8), Bazentin-le-Grand (14/8) - 2 companies in trenches north-east of village. To front line (17/8). 'B' and 'D' Companies attacked (18/8) - 'C' company in support - 'A' in reserve. Objective Wood Lane - War Diary records 'survivors came in at dusk.' Casualties - 227. War Diary entry for (18/8) also records 'One man to base under age.' Relieved by 1st Cameronians and to Mametz Wood (19/8). (Westlake)

cheers, Jon

[Paul Nixon]

His number - 8320 - indicates that he joined the 4th King's in 1909, probably around September or October of that year. So he'd have been very young when he joined up and presumably enlisted for boys' service, which you could do from the age of 14.

Paul

[raydenaes]

Thanks to you all very much for that info, it is really appreciated. I downloaded his medal card, there was no mention of any medal except he was deceased. Does that mean he was awarded no medals?. The other info I found to be extremely helpful and have included it all in our family history file. Do you know if there would be any further info available of any of his direct and personal account.

My father also was in the Kings Reg Liverpool in WW2 and am in the process of trying to locate his records also.

[archangel9]

Thanks to you all very much for that info, it is really appreciated. I downloaded his medal card, there was no mention of any medal except he was deceased. Does that mean he was awarded no medals?. The other info I found to be extremely helpful and have included it all in our family history file. Do you know if there would be any further info available of any of his direct and personal account.

My father also was in the Kings Reg Liverpool in WW2 and am in the process of trying to locate his records also.

He certainly was entitled to medals - 1914/15 Star (entered after 22/11/1914), BWM and VM. Its strange that these aren't recorded on the MIC. Normally this might indicate the presence of a second MIC, possibly with a different spelling of his surname, but I haven't been able to find another card

John

[SteveE]

The Medal Index Card indicates he was awarded the 1914-15 Star, reference for its award is in the top right hand corner of the card (H/2/2B Page 144). The other boxes being empty suggests there should be another card somewhere but like John I can't see an obvious candidate for it.

Regards

Steve

[Fattyowls]

I've recently made the acquaintance of Sgt Honan's great great granddaughter Sarah, and despite my protestations to the contrary she is convinced that I know a bit about WW1. There are two threads on the forum about Martin Honan from ten years ago, here and here. I was able to describe Martin's death on the 18th August 1916 attacking Wood Lane near High Wood on the Somme, and from the previous posts I was able to tell Sarah that Martin had joined up probably as a cadet, and had gone to France with the 1st battalion before transferring to the 4th at some stage.

 

The only thing I've been able to add is the soldier's effects record which states that Martin Honan had an alias: John Dunn. The posts from ten years ago suggested that there should be another medal card and I was wondering if this might be why it didn't come to light at the time. I can't think how this might be the case and I was wondering if anyone had experience of dealing with aliases and could give me any top tips.

 

Pete.

 

P.S. I haven't decided if I should tell Sarah about her great great uncle William in the ASC, he sounds a bit of a 'character' but not in a good way.....

[DavidOwen]

Pete

It looks as if he may have enlisted as Dunn pre war and at some time after the war began confessed to the alias. His MIC under Dunn is on Ancestry here

The army must have known of his name change prior to his death as CWGC does not list him as an ALIAS.

Sorry can't add any more at present

David

 

 

[Fattyowls]

David, absolutely no need to apologise; that's brilliant. I spent an unhappy hour in Ancestry (is there any other kind?) last night trying to find the 'other' MIC for John Dunn with no success. That advances the story significantly, Sarah was worried that we were going to find a second family with the surname Dunn, so that's a relief. Still debating telling her about William Honan however.

 

Pete.

[DavidOwen]

I can understand about William but it isn't as if he ran away and hid, he went on to serve in the RN so he did do his bit in the end.

 

(There was a John William Dunn who was pre-war number 8320 in Sth Lancs Regt whose service papers exist on FMP but I don't see it being either of these two as he was from Rochdale and born 1886 enlisting 1905. He too was a 'character').

[Fattyowls]

2 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

I can understand about William but it isn't as if he ran away and hid, he went on to serve in the RN so he did do his bit in the end.

 

Thanks David, when I looked through the charge sheet I wondered if he was wasted in the ASC, but having been a carter in civvy street you can understand why. I'll have a wander through the war diaries of the 4th KLR to see if there is any mention of transfers from the first battalion. I'll try and make the most of the Ancestry free weekend, it's already thrown up some interesting stuff on a couple of my other interests.

 

Pete.

 

[Fattyowls]

Apologies for waiting three weeks to update this but I've been trying to identify the streets where the Honan family lived for Sarah and checking that she didn't mind me re-activating at least one of the threads that her relative started ten years ago. Having wasted the last Ancestry free weekend trying to find the war diaries of the 4th KLR I compounded this by failing to store the service records of two fisted Uncle William.

 

What I am thinking of doing is looking at the men with service numbers either side of Martin Honan/John Dunn to see if there are any surviving service records. The transfer between the battalions might have involved a group of men, I have come across this once before. All this is predicated on my local library still having access to Ancestry or another freebie weekend happening soon.

 

On 07/07/2019 at 14:17, DavidOwen said:

 he went on to serve in the RN so he did do his bit in the end.

 

Hi David; was that in the service records? I have to admit that I only skip read William's stuff and thought that some of the pages were repeated. I'm sure Sarah will be intrigued about her great great uncle. I'm sure she'll be really appreciative of your efforts.

 

Pete.

[DavidOwen]

Pete

 

Yes, image from FMP link here

 

 

Regards

 

David

[Fattyowls]

Bit of an update on Martin thanks to those nice people at Ancestry giving us a freebie weekender.

 

I've searched back though the 4th KLR war diaries and found Martin Honan on a list of reinforcements transferring from No. 8 Infantry Base Depot on 27th December 1915. There are no other mentions for the following 9 months up to his death on 18th August 1916 that I can see; so he'd taken on his real name before joining. I need to find which battalion he was originally with which I think is in one of the original threads. I'm quite pleased with myself that I managed to find the war diary at all, but I remembered a top tip from here on the forum from ages ago. It at least keeps my mind off events at Headingley.

 

I've also found a picture of him which I will pass on to Sarah. She is very grateful for everyone's help, her mum is absolutely thrilled and is updating the wider family with all the information. I'll be dropping Sarah a line later with the new stuff.

 

Pete.

 

 

Edited 3 September , 2019 by Fattyowls
Inability to count

[Fattyowls]

23 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

I need to find which battalion he was originally with which I think is in one of the original threads.

 

Doh! If I'd read my original post I would have found the answer. I blame the cricket, I'm tense just listening to the re-runs on Five Live Extra and I know what happens.......

 

[Fattyowls]

Chums, I've passed on all the new stuff to Sarah and she is really grateful. I'm very grateful too.

 

I said I'd let her know if anything new turns up, but I'm hoping that the mystery of why Martin Honan spent the first part of his war as John Dunn might emerge from the family. Interesting that his 14-15 Star was awarded to 8320 Honan M and yet his Victory and War medals were under 8320 Dunn J. I will take the diabolical liberty of updating the two original threads just in case any of the original posters are interested. Last but not least a big thank you to @Don Regiano and Mrs Regiano (does that make her Donna Regiano?).

 

Pete.

[Marilyne]

now I'm curious… WHAT did uncle WIlliam do???

 

M.

[Fattyowls]

1 hour ago, Marilyne said:

now I'm curious… WHAT did uncle WIlliam do???

 

M.

 

I'll dig out the charge sheet and try to summarise it; give me a couple of weeks.......

[DavidOwen]

2 hours ago, Marilyne said:

now I'm curious… WHAT did uncle WIlliam do???

 

M.

M

 

He was caught fighting and drunk, then absent, then refusing to go on guard duty, then striking a NCO on active service, theft. etc. etc. until he deserted in August 1915. The Army caught up with him in October 1915 (see my post #7 above) when he was serving in the Royal Navy, they decided to leave him there!

 

David

 

All images courtesy FMP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fattyowls]

An excellent summary David, thanks for that too. When I mentioned great great uncle William to Sarah I glossed over the various charges and used the phrase 'a bit of a character' or similar.

 

Pete.

 

P.S. I'm sure the major would take a dim view of such behaviour in her battalion.

[Marilyne]

well well well... just the kind of guy one wants in one's unit !! 

 

thanks!! 

 

Pete, believe it or not, guys doing that today would get off with a warning, helped explaining themselves by some quack of a behaviorist... 

 

M.

[Guest]

Hi

Thanks for all this research and info.   It is very interesting Martin Honan was my Great Grandfather. I visited his grave in 2018. Very poignant. 

I am interested in his life and very proud of him.  I have the photo that my cousin Dean had but wondered if there are any more. 

I am also intrigued by William's antics and thought maybe Martin had changed his name because if this.  How did you find out about the alias?  Look forward to hearing your thoughts and any further information you may have. Regards

Tony

[Fattyowls]

On 29/01/2020 at 01:22, Tony bishop said:

Hi

Thanks for all this research and info.   It is very interesting Martin Honan was my Great Grandfather. I visited his grave in 2018. Very poignant. 

I am interested in his life and very proud of him.  I have the photo that my cousin Dean had but wondered if there are any more. 

I am also intrigued by William's antics and thought maybe Martin had changed his name because if this.  How did you find out about the alias?  Look forward to hearing your thoughts and any further information you may have. Regards

Tony

 

Hi Tony

 

Sorry for the delay; I didn't spot your post until now. I think everything that I found and sent on to Sarah is here, the information about the alias came from Martin's soldiers effects entry which is on Ancestry. This notes the alias with his name; the key bit of information is that the various payments to which the family were entitled went to his widow Elizabeth. It is an interesting idea that the alias may be in response to what William got up to; I think he was using the alias from before the war. I said to Sarah that solving the mystery would most likely come from the family so it's great that yet another branch has become involved.

 

Pete.