14276265 Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 48 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said: As far as I know there was no standard trench club mass produced although some of the Austrian ones in this thread do look rather too good to be knocked up in the trenches. The Royal Engineers did produce standard club heads and one version did have aspects of the mediaeval mace about it. First Army Workshops produced the No.1 Knobkerrie for Entrenching Tool and No.2 Knobkerrie for Bombers Clubs. 265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 (edited) Standard British and German designs did exist. One of the British designs was a much-"reproduced" (= faked) large cog that went on the metal end of an entrenching tool handle. The most frequently-seen British design is a hardwood truncheon, lead-filled at the end with three rows of either square or triple-headed nails. (The IWM have one of the square-nailed type which they call German, but the IWM is seemingly staffed by kids who don't know what they are talking about.) Despite what anyone might want to believe, the OP's example is absolutely, indisputably a fake. As mentioned by @Grovetown, we are not allowed to discuss sellers. I think @14276265 said all that was necessary. [Edit: I didn't see the post above this one till I'd posted this; I was referring to the tea spillage...] Two original British clubs below. Other correct examples have been posted on here from time to time. Edited 27 June , 2019 by wainfleet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted 27 June , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2019 Thank you everyone for your replies so far. The reason I started this thread is because I thought there was enough of a chance it was authentic to risk a fiver on, and too much chance of a fake to pay the original asking price of a tenner. Gunner - my description of a collectors' fair was a polite euphamism for a flea market - coins, postcards, stamps, tons of house clearance furniture and one lonesome club, be it trench or not. The obvious lesson so far is that for any object which doesn't require industrial machinery or truly unique materials to make then provenance is everything. I wonder how battlefield relics or barn finds can retain a truly robust provenance, and therefore historical and financial value, once they pass beyond their first finder? It just seems a shame that our interest, which I'm sure for most is based upon a profound respect and admiration for our family members, their comrades and services, has become contaminated by fraud. But such is life. I don't seriously believe that if a solder was nominated for raiding then he would spend his day whittling up a club on the firestep. It makes far more sense that they were made behind the lines in a workshop, maybe to some sort of local preferred design and using locally available materials, even perhaps chairlegs and hobnails ;-) From which one could speculate that many of a very similar pattern could have existed in a bunch at a single time and place, say one chap's daily production from the same set of chairs and bag of nails. Perhaps even a bucketful? Just saying........ Zuluwar - thank you for your kind offer to look at details. I attach some photos here. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 Unfortunately is a well made fake. Watch the differences between yours and the other I have posted from the well known dealer. But in any case this is good for display and further research by your side. After Christ prophets, are rude. Do not bother with them. Regards D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joolz Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 As some of you picked up, in my original comment, I was being 'sarky'. I've made dozens of trench clubs over the years, for reenactors and show-and-tell etc. (they are all made new, not aged, and with sufficient differences to real ones that they cannot be passed off as genuine). I won't pollute this topic with photos of my work. I'm afraid it didn't take much to see this one was not 'right'. I particularly enjoy the ones with regimental names and dates and WD/Broad Arrow stamped in the lead, just to emphasize how truly 'genuine' they are.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 I've got a French fake Mills base plug with the word Birminghan on it. They make errors like that frequently. Another was dated February 1915 A date that is before Mills got his first contract. Howlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted 27 June , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2019 Thank you Zuluwar. I am worse off by the price of a couple of pints, but richer for the experience. Wainfleet - thanks for the photos of correct examples. What specific features tell you that they are correct beyond the scope of fakery? For example,are they family heirlooms with a solid story, or from a regimental museum etc? Or is it down to look and feel? J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 6 minutes ago, JohnC said: Thank you Zuluwar. I am worse off by the price of a couple of pints, but richer for the experience. Wainfleet - thanks for the photos of correct examples. What specific features tell you that they are correct beyond the scope of fakery? For example,are they family heirlooms with a solid story, or from a regimental museum etc? Or is it down to look and feel? J My small collection of Ww1 Trench clubs Regards D. Look the diversity of Trench clubs made during ww1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 1 hour ago, JohnC said: Wainfleet - thanks for the photos of correct examples. What specific features tell you that they are correct beyond the scope of fakery? For example,are they family heirlooms with a solid story, or from a regimental museum etc? Or is it down to look and feel? J John, it's partly the three rows of studs and the lead plug, partly also the look and feel. Besides not being any known pattern, the fakes are made with very light, flimsy wood and don't balance properly. I don't doubt that real clubs exist that are not to any known pattern, but the appearance of literally dozens like yours, all weathered from spending time outside, should alert anyone who's seen them to the unlikelihood of so many similar ones being found in this condition. I was collecting these things before they started to be faked and they were extremely scarce then. Now, like tank masks and aircraft fabric, they are turning up all the time. I can't always tell if something is genuine, but often I can and I am quite good at spotting fakes. If people choose not to believe me, that's fine. I'm just offering the beneift of my own experience to help people avoid spending good money on fraudulent items if I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted 27 June , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 June , 2019 That's very useful to know, thank you. I've been collecting old-ish and military-ish stuff for 50+ of my 59 years and can usually spot wrong-uns of many things, but this time I was caught out on a object of a type new to me. Live and learn. At least I haven't been suckered for hundreds on a dud tank mask. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joolz Posted 27 June , 2019 Share Posted 27 June , 2019 If you see any like this, buy them, please....then burn them, for the good of humanity: Saw a classic the other day on a US forum, stamped 'WORCESTER - 1916 - (Broadarrow)', poor chap was so chuffed with it.....an antique of the future, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 28 June , 2019 Share Posted 28 June , 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Joolz said: If you see any like this, buy them, please....then burn them, for the good of humanity: Saw a classic the other day on a US forum, stamped 'WORCESTER - 1916 - (Broadarrow)', poor chap was so chuffed with it.....an antique of the future, I guess. All those Trench clubs are fake for sure but a lot of ignorants buy them and pay (for them) a lot of money. We should make a topic about fake objects from Ww1, in order to prevent enthusiastic collectors from this kind of fraud. Regards D. Edited 28 June , 2019 by zuluwar2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Bennitt Posted 28 June , 2019 Share Posted 28 June , 2019 24 minutes ago, zuluwar2006 said: All those Trench clubs are fake for sure but a lot of ignorants buy them and pay (for them) a lot of money. We should make a topic about fake objects from Ww1, in order to prevent enthusiastic collectors from this kind of fraud. Regards D. We are restricted in this by Forum rules, which state Members may not comment, or seek comment on the accuracy of description or honesty of any item offered for sale whether on line or in other places. Please take note Cheers Martin B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 28 June , 2019 Admin Share Posted 28 June , 2019 This discussion is now closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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