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searching_for_years

"run" and "break out"

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searching_for_years

Hello,

Please could SKS translate the notes on this clipping for me please - it's from the navy record of an able seaman in the Royal Navy.

TIA

Screen Shot 2019-06-25 at 21.15.30.png

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horatio2

He deserted (marked RUN) from the naval base at Dover (known as HMS ATTENTIVE II) on a date not on the extract.

He was recovered from desertion at Chatham on 8/3/1918.

On 31/12/1918 his Character was assessed as 'Indifferent' as a result of offences committed in the calendar year 1918.

He was awarded a punishment of 90 days imprisonment at hard labour and is also recorded as having attempted to break out.

It would be easier to place this information in context were the whole of the record available rather than a small snippet.

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searching_for_years
4 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

He deserted (marked RUN) from the naval base at Dover (known as HMS ATTENTIVE II) on a date not on the extract.

He was recovered from desertion at Chatham on 8/3/1918.

On 31/12/1918 his Character was assessed as 'Indifferent' as a result of offences committed in the calendar year 1918.

He was awarded a punishment of 90 days imprisonment at hard labour and is also recorded as having attempted to break out.

It would be easier to place this information in context were the whole of the record available rather than a small snippet.

Thank you. I'll post the whole thing if I'm allowed to?

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searching_for_years
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

He deserted (marked RUN) from the naval base at Dover (known as HMS ATTENTIVE II) on a date not on the extract.

He was recovered from desertion at Chatham on 8/3/1918.

On 31/12/1918 his Character was assessed as 'Indifferent' as a result of offences committed in the calendar year 1918.

He was awarded a punishment of 90 days imprisonment at hard labour and is also recorded as having attempted to break out.

It would be easier to place this information in context were the whole of the record available rather than a small snippet.

1567979823_ScreenShot2019-06-25at22_29_29.png.4a3fd9ceb95c35830b6dd74f636f1ce1.png

Screen Shot 2019-06-25 at 22.29.29.png

Edited by searching_for_years
posting bigger piece of the record

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searching_for_years
16 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

He deserted (marked RUN) from the naval base at Dover (known as HMS ATTENTIVE II) on a date not on the extract.

He was recovered from desertion at Chatham on 8/3/1918.

On 31/12/1918 his Character was assessed as 'Indifferent' as a result of offences committed in the calendar year 1918.

He was awarded a punishment of 90 days imprisonment at hard labour and is also recorded as having attempted to break out.

It would be easier to place this information in context were the whole of the record available rather than a small snippet.

Thanks very much Horatio 2, I've now posted a much bigger piece of the record. Please tell me all you can about what you can deduce from it, especially what date he deserted ... this may be very significant in terms of what else was going on in his family at the time. Thank you so much!

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horatio2

Thanks. That helps a lot. It is now clear that he was serving in the destroyer HMS LIGHTFOOT, borne on the books of HMS ATTENTIVE II. At Chatham on 8 Mar 1918 he deserted from LIGHTFOOT. He appears to have been recovered from desertion three months later on 8 Jun. He was borne on the books of HMS VICTORY for 99 days while undergoing punishment for desertion. It is not clear from where he tried to break out but he may have had an extra nine days (90 + 9) for this.

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Lawryleslie

He was also "awarded" 2nd Class for conduct on his initial recovery, although there is an error in dates for this as it is written 04.07.06-14.01.07. Guessing the year should be 16 and 17. He was also given 2nd Class for conduct later from 14.08.18-14.11.18.

2nd Class for Conduct was more of an administrative punishment confining the man to barracks or his ship without leave. He would also have had to muster several times a day to ensure he hadn’t absconded again. Maybe that the restriction on his liberty was why he went on the "Run".

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searching_for_years
1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

Thanks. That helps a lot. It is now clear that he was serving in the destroyer HMS LIGHTFOOT, borne on the books of HMS ATTENTIVE II. At Chatham on 8 Mar 1918 he deserted from LIGHTFOOT. He appears to have been recovered from desertion three months later on 8 Jun. He was borne on the books of HMS VICTORY for 99 days while undergoing punishment for desertion. It is not clear from where he tried to break out but he may have had an extra nine days (90 + 9) for this.

 

Thanks, that's really helpful. He was really on the run for a whole 3 months? Wow!

 

Underneath where it says recovered, there are then the words 'Sal run'. Is that another desertion do you think? What does sal stand for in that context, do you know, please?

 

This is all really important to me to get right - it impacts on some pretty major other events that were going on in the family at the time - so thank you very much for your help in doing so.

52 minutes ago, Lawryleslie said:

He was also "awarded" 2nd Class for conduct on his initial recovery, although there is an error in dates for this as it is written 04.07.06-14.01.07. Guessing the year should be 16 and 17. He was also given 2nd Class for conduct later from 14.08.18-14.11.18.

2nd Class for Conduct was more of an administrative punishment confining the man to barracks or his ship without leave. He would also have had to muster several times a day to ensure he hadn’t absconded again. Maybe that the restriction on his liberty was why he went on the "Run".

 

Oh, that's very interesting, in the context of what was going on it the family. So he wouldn't have been able to leave base to go and see his wife during that time?

 

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horatio2
18 minutes ago, searching_for_years said:

'Sal run'. Is that another desertion do you think?

the line reading "8 Mar 18 - VG - Sat - Run". Is a Character and Ability assessment made on the day he deserted. (Very Good character  and Satisfactory ability.) Normally this is done on 31 Dec each year but he was assessed for 1918 up to the day he deserted. For Dec 1918 he was downgraded to Indifferent (the lowest possible) and Satisfactory. I note that the "Run" has a 'tick' notation which refers to elsewhere in the record - because the whole record is not posted the meaning is unclear.

I note that in December 1917 he was assessed as "Good - Sat", so he must have had another fairly serious punishment during 1917.

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Lawryleslie
2 hours ago, searching_for_years said:

 

Thanks, that's really helpful. He was really on the run for a whole 3 months? Wow!

 

Underneath where it says recovered, there are then the words 'Sal run'. Is that another desertion do you think? What does sal stand for in that context, do you know, please?

 

This is all really important to me to get right - it impacts on some pretty major other events that were going on in the family at the time - so thank you very much for your help in doing so.

 

Oh, that's very interesting, in the context of what was going on it the family. So he wouldn't have been able to leave base to go and see his wife during that time?

 

No he would not. 2nd Class for Conduct could only be awarded by Warrant issued by the Admiralty. Maximum was 6 months although a Captain could rescind it after 3 months if the man showed reform. The punishment also included a reduction in pay of one sixth of his daily rate.

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searching_for_years
4 hours ago, Lawryleslie said:

No he would not. 2nd Class for Conduct could only be awarded by Warrant issued by the Admiralty. Maximum was 6 months although a Captain could rescind it after 3 months if the man showed reform. The punishment also included a reduction in pay of one sixth of his daily rate.

This is all really really helpful, thank you! I am now posting the maximum size clipping I can get onto a screenshot, in the hope that more clues will become evident. (Please scroll down to see the whole clipping.)

 

So if I summarise what I think I understand so far, please can you check what I've written and correct / add to it as necessary?

 

In mid-April 1916 our man returned to Portsmouth, where he was land-based for the next six months, after which he was assigned to the Dover base from Oct 16 to June 17. This was followed by another four months land-based at Portsmouth followed by another four months at Dover, from 16th November 1917 to 8th March 1918.

 

What happens next is pretty important in terms of putting this man's (and his wife's) story together.

 

So do you think he deserted on 8th March 1918, or was recovered on that date, or both? (I'm noticing a note at the bottom which seems to say 'recovered and sentenced to 60 days detention wt 19.4.18'.) Also another note which says 'enters from detention' which seems to relate to 14 Nov 1918, opposite the bit that says 90 days hard labour (attempted to break out).

 

Combined with the 2nd class for conduct, this sounds as if he was either in prison or else not allowed to leave the base for much of 1918. Is that right?.

 

Thank you so much (again).

 


1842619677_ScreenShot2019-06-26at17_53_10.png.dca164b6094eee724b87a290438b7785.png

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searching_for_years
6 hours ago, horatio2 said:

the line reading "8 Mar 18 - VG - Sat - Run". Is a Character and Ability assessment made on the day he deserted. (Very Good character  and Satisfactory ability.) Normally this is done on 31 Dec each year but he was assessed for 1918 up to the day he deserted. For Dec 1918 he was downgraded to Indifferent (the lowest possible) and Satisfactory. I note that the "Run" has a 'tick' notation which refers to elsewhere in the record - because the whole record is not posted the meaning is unclear.

I note that in December 1917 he was assessed as "Good - Sat", so he must have had another fairly serious punishment during 1917.

 

Thank you very much, this is all really illuminating. I am making a real pig's breakfast of trying to navigate this message board but that is down to my poor tech skills! I was trying to reply to both you and Lawrieleslie but have only succeeded in pasting the same clip several times in a message to him. I shall now attempt to paste it once more here - this is the biggest clip I can do. I hope it contains enough additional information for you to be able to clarify whether he deserted on 8th March at Chatham, or was recovered there, and precidely when he was in prison.

 

I can see that, just like medical and nursing notes (which I do understand, having been a nurse) have their own language which is obvious to insiders but impenetrable or misleading to others, so too do Navy records!

Screen Shot 2019-06-26 at 17.53.10.png

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Lawryleslie
Posted (edited)
  • The expanded service certificate sheds more light on his earlier 2nd Class for conduct. It seems the year 06-07 are correct as he was placed for 10 days in cells sometime between 27 May and 3 July 06 and was placed immediately on 2nd Class for conduct the following day 4 July 06 serving full 6 months. There is also reference to the Dardanelles Campaign in the remarks box which would have been when he was on HMS Queen between 4th June 1914-16 April 1916. HMS Queen was a pre Dreadnought Battleship heavily involved with the initial landings at Cape Helle late April 1915.,
Edited by Lawryleslie

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searching_for_years
1 hour ago, Lawryleslie said:
  • The expanded service certificate sheds more light on his earlier 2nd Class for conduct. It seems the year 06-07 are correct as he was placed for 10 days in cells sometime between 27 May and 3 July 06 and was placed immediately on 2nd Class for conduct the following day 4 July 06 serving full 6 months. There is also reference to the Dardanelles Campaign in the remarks box which would have been when he was on HMS Queen between 4th June 1914-16 April 1916. HMS Queen was a pre Dreadnought Battleship heavily involved with the initial landings at Cape Helle late April 1915.,

 

Thank you. He married in October 1914 - it doesn't sound as if he would have had much opportunity to see his wife over the next four years? Would he have had leave at any point?

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Lawryleslie

In 1914 we was serving on HMS Queen which saw action in Dardanelles the following April and later in 1915 saw action in the Adriatic against the Italians so doubt he would have seen much of his wife until he was drafted to Victory 1 in April 1916 which was accommodation and administrative base in Portsmouth. He stayed there until May when he was posted to HMS Excellent which was  training base for gunnery officers and ratings in Portsmouth (now RN School of Firefighting and Damage Control) until October 1916. One would assume that he would have seen his wife from May-Oct especially if they lived in Portsmouth. Where they lived would have determined whether they saw much of each other over the next few years until he was incarcerated in detention.

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