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Boomstick

HELP need this to be identified

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Boomstick

I am new to this and have looked this up and not sure what this is. It has no unit markings that I can see and some idiot repainted the thing green but the blade on this is so nice I have seen alit if knifes and none come close to the quality.of this bayonets.blade. Long story short please let me know what ever you know.for.sure and thank you in advance

1561354089968916811357.jpg

15613541543961236013875.jpg

1561354191556125907916.jpg

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Chasemuseum

German WW1  s84/98 bayonet, manufactured 1916. Initially produced as a cavalry bayonet when swords were withdrawn.

 

This became the standard model during WW2.

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Gunner Bailey

And quite rare as the biggest distribution was to the 'Stormtroopers' in the 1918 spring offensive. 

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Boomstick

Thank you gunner. It's rare I guess how rare do u think

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Gunner Bailey

You certainly see fewer of them than the standard Butcher bayonet or even the Sawback bayonet. I don't know how many that maker manufactured in WW1 but maybe someone on the forum does.

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Boomstick

Yah I am trying to locate a good drawback to add to the collection.

Again thank u

Roberr

Check me speaking lol sawback 

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trajan
On 24/06/2019 at 18:57, Chasemuseum said:

German WW1  s84/98 bayonet, manufactured 1916. Initially produced as a cavalry bayonet when swords were withdrawn.

 

This became the standard model during WW2.

 

On 24/06/2019 at 19:20, Gunner Bailey said:

And quite rare as the biggest distribution was to the 'Stormtroopers' in the 1918 spring offensive. 

 

Slight correction if I may chaps! 

 

The order for the issue of short bayonets for cavalry was 28th November 1914, the order for return of cavalry degen was 2nd June 1916. But yes, in its third form this became the standard WW2 bayonet.

 

Issue to 'stormtroopers' - can't find my exact notes on this right now re:storm troopers, but on 8th May 1915 Berlin ordered these began to be issued to infantry units. They were, however, always, in short supply: of the 15,000 S.84/98nA distributed to Bavaria in June 1918 all were distributed by September, when a request from Munich on 11th September for a further 20,000 met with the response from Berlin on 14th September 1918 that only 10,000 could be sent as stocks were exhausted! 

 

Rarity? Yes - and no! Between August 1914 and and March 1918, Saxony received 453,387 regular S.98/05 and 89,287 S.98/05mS, and 48,319 regular S.84/98 compared to 13,058 S.84/98mS. So rarer than 98/05's but kS 98's are rarer!

 

Julian

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Gunner Bailey

Julian. 

 

I got my info from one of the books about the 1918 Spring Offensive. Can't remember which one at present. 

John 

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trajan
58 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Julian. 

 

I got my info from one of the books about the 1918 Spring Offensive. Can't remember which one at present. 

John 

 

Hi John,

 

One of the problems of having GWF bayonets as a hobby but also a consuming interest and a full-time academic job and a young family to boot is that I often can't get back to my notes to check things! Yes, in general terms, the German documents that I have seen and can remember - as in the quote above from the Bavarian records - indicate a demand for 84/98's towards the end of the war. I am certain that I have seen also somewhere a reference to the demand for these by 'trench raiders' i.e., stormtroopers, but I am bu**erd if I can remember where right now but in the Bavarian archive somewhere... Added to which I am focussed on sawbacks for a journal article... When I do remember where I saw that one I'll post it up. As you might suspect I have accumulatd quite a bunch of material from German sources on bayonets, etc., but I really need a sabbatical to put it all together cohrently in one place... :wacko:

 

Julian

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trajan
On 24/06/2019 at 19:20, Gunner Bailey said:

And quite rare as the biggest distribution was to the 'Stormtroopers' in the 1918 spring offensive. 

 

13 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

I got my info from one of the books about the 1918 Spring Offensive. Can't remember which one at present. 

John 

 

I can't confirm the main distribution in 1918 spring offensive story but I have a transcript of an order issued by the Prussian War Ministry on 18 Jan 1917 (Nr. 1133/1.17.A2) which basically says that the Sturmtruppen "currently armed with the S.98 lang" (i.e., the regular S.98) were to be re-armed with the S.84/98 - "kurze, wie fuer M.G=Formation". It goes on to say that these bayonets will be despatched to all Sturmbataillione - "including the troops of Bavaria, Saxony and Wurttemburg" to replace their exisiting bayonets.

 

Julian

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Gunner Bailey

That's getting closer Julian. It certainly makes sense for fast moving troops to have a lighter rifle/bayonet combination. 

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trajan

Indeed, indeed. But what amazes me is that the order specifically states that some Sturmtruppen were then armed with the long S.98!!! These were being replaced by the S.98/05 in early 1915, and while the initial destination of the 'new' 84/98 was the cavalry, the Prussian War Ministry ordered them for the pioniers also from 29 March 1915 (Order Nr. 2067/3.15.A2). Seems odd that Sturmtruppen units would still have the old long pipe-backed S.98 as late as January 1917. Weren't the first Sturmabteilung units made up of pioniers?

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Boomstick

You guys are amazing where do u get all these regulations at?? Then to.read them and know it.like you guys do is just impressive. Thanks for everything

Robert

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trajan

The regulations are published here and there in scattered places, mainly German books, and also exisit in the Bavarian archives, who will copy them for a fee. Takes a while to accumulate them!

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Steve1871

I collect the whole M71 family, including 71/84 and Bayonet's, have a few 61/84 bayonet's, but only 1 84/98ms

Yes the Sawbacks were/are scarcer but aside from that, and Saxony, what makes one 84/98 rarer than the next? Help please

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Steve1871

Sorry, typo again, that is 84/98

I must be the worst typest on the forum

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trajan

No, Steve, you are by no means the worst typist here... So many of my posts have typos - always noted after posting! - that with a long post I usually re-paste it on WORD for spelling mistakes before copy-pasting back here!

 

OK, relative rarity of 84/98's? According to Carter, who probably saw more of these bayonets than either of us have eaten hot-dinners, noted two only examples of E.Siepmann & Co marked 84/98's. So, that has to be the rarest maker.

 

Among unit-marked examples Hartkopf and Heller are the most common - but I have recorded so few unit-marked 84/98's that I can't really make a firm judgement on relative rarity of one maker against another. Easier to list what unit-marked examples of 84/98 that I don't have examples of - which is the majority of the known makers!

 

Julian

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Steve1871

Thank's Julian, You are always a great help with info and your insight and experience 😊

 

 

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trajan

Always happy to help where I can!

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zuluwar2006
Posted (edited)
On 14/07/2019 at 07:47, trajan said:

No, Steve, you are by no means the worst typist here... So many of my posts have typos - always noted after posting! - that with a long post I usually re-paste it on WORD for spelling mistakes before copy-pasting back here!

 

OK, relative rarity of 84/98's? According to Carter, who probably saw more of these bayonets than either of us have eaten hot-dinners, noted two only examples of E.Siepmann & Co marked 84/98's. So, that has to be the rarest maker.

 

Among unit-marked examples Hartkopf and Heller are the most common - but I have recorded so few unit-marked 84/98's that I can't really make a firm judgement on relative rarity of one maker against another. Easier to list what unit-marked examples of 84/98 that I don't have examples of - which is the majority of the known makers!

 

Julian

Dear Julian,

glad to see you after so much time...

i missed you...

Your knowlede on this field is superb.

Here are my contribution on 84/98 unit markings, from my modest collection.

Regards

D.

5ac71dd9eec7a_MG2184_98.jpg.84ca301b4e6d39141182dc0805f724ac.jpg5ac8e845b7b8e_MGSS1.jpg.ffb003ed8b4e78ea4a5a8c4ca29ef550.jpg5acb21b82d024_KUUNIT.jpg.b4ceac4acb3dfb1af39396d73243051a.jpg5acc89ae8d9fd_IMG_38701.JPG.0ecb398ce7e4ea236a2b23645411ba57.JPG5ad1a9e79dd23_IMG_39031.JPG.c8cc04d6bc36f1cf3ee14b6356341cef.JPG5ad1a9f821aa2_IMG_39041.thumb.JPG.29bf433e6ec17ce531386ac902d60057.JPG5ad2e5f29f774_IMG_39431.JPG.8c0bdd89758297473f16e4d0af95bf65.JPG5ad2e653cb5db_IMG_39541.thumb.JPG.35eda5a299cadc9d6fff2a04c5b2ff7c.JPG5adf588e90e0e_IMG_40551.JPG.568bb8993d5d87a7dbfb9f0457f5875b.JPG5ae88ec88b744_IMG_41511.JPG.fe5012e4656f9cec56675659d6e5b7e5.JPG5ae88ef0910c4_IMG_41521.JPG.ac50e0e32fbed5eecc66ac4f5c16b11d.JPG1228576069_20180602_1752471.jpg.76c8b91d1e4c052551afbf8c12d33632.jpg189258676_20180602_1753161.jpg.df596a4ca1a86a98671139ab41427d29.jpg850050793_20180602_1811461.jpg.7b37834af94376b45e2b80b2a6ab6393.jpg102196500_20180602_1811571.jpg.55bc288a9d27b04881efca8bff5fe351.jpg1026841023_20180605_2100111.jpg.ea4f72912a6e3f867242000cc50d58c6.jpg672678745_20180605_2101101.jpg.50ab246f203f1fde5d9b7219d96858e3.jpg730215916_20180623_1713511.jpg.7de6cc7a2fefd8e5ccb564222c30ec8f.jpg140756456_20180707_2235191.jpg.713dd564312a86b736da20a32a48a469.jpg1127433348_20180707_2234171.jpg.e0314465a990826069c7dacf6b61dba4.jpg1197580138_20180707_2224271.jpg.091b6b5dea82413d4e653ae030064bbd.jpg831497538_20180707_2224331.jpg.d4b2de0f128d829e57ccb7787cb4823c.jpg1474673663_20180707_2003011.jpg.e916a3293a401743c26aec07a6961870.jpg1447184247_20180707_2003071.jpg.103a09860580de45472beef14ac43a0e.jpg1210245344_20180707_2044561.jpg.95d1d3ea3f93cbe23a636f56c7e46325.jpg1615025179_20180707_2045131.jpg.f0ac0b75a2fcc90aaa126f6e00d09d5a.jpg759125062_20180707_2045251.jpg.f84d23dcc0c5d086f355922b758019b6.jpg1749205549_AB5.thumb.jpg.390a9e2487cb88f6e91c6594925871fd.jpg1681036222_AB6.thumb.jpg.d7290f55aa27bce69dc1f5903364bb34.jpg388779002_AB7.thumb.jpg.12b1c49287a1079ae1d3adddaf69d34f.jpgIMG_20181207_165025.jpg.5ee7d3c880752b5a8652e525ebd47b48.jpgIMG_20181207_164944.jpg.85bbd96076f8abe5a0d61249abd71ded.jpgIMG_20181207_164617.jpg.53fa44177f2e413425a23f242923159f.jpg5ae88ef0910c4_IMG_41521.JPG.ac50e0e32fbed5eecc66ac4f5c16b11d.JPG.80eb6db74635db0c5387e05836a15ce9.JPG5ae88ec88b744_IMG_41511.JPG.fe5012e4656f9cec56675659d6e5b7e5.JPG.effffe24b5468beddc1d8803a4cbcafa.JPGIMG_20190118_151517.jpg.f63d93e2e8b5c95b2211ca44b91e5b88.jpg00005_Baionnette-84-98-pionnier-modifiee-Sans-fourreau-affectation-15-D-48-.jpg.d43f4f587e8f81d25db46d1a59a8d601.jpg00008_Baionnette-84-98-pionnier-modifiee-Sans-fourreau-affectation-15-D-48-.jpg.212f1fe1a122167fc3e1e96df2ecfb33.jpg00001_Baionnette-84-98-pionnier-modifiee-Sans-fourreau-affectation-15-D-48-.jpg.6f22e0957bf9cc397c19809c079a98ad.jpg7504695.215827841.jpg.f35c3e213d759f486f094d2086c8094a.jpgIMG_20190627_191315.jpg.aff4b18baf3564ee37e983a3d4032ae8.jpg

Edited by zuluwar2006

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trajan

Dimitrios,

 

Thanks for your nice comments! I was suffering from overwork with teaching summer school, my research projects, and also having the boys to look after as they are on holiday but my wife is not!

 

That is an outstanding series you have just posted there, and so many nicely marked cavalry unit ones! I am way behind on my listing of unit-marks, but all of yours here, and Steve's also, willl certainly massively increase my 'data base' and certainly make it more useful for analytical purposes. 

 

Thanks really for posting them!

 

Julian

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