Boomstick Posted 24 June , 2019 Share Posted 24 June , 2019 (edited) I am new to this and think I understand how to.read them but.i really want a confirmation.. so please any help would be greatly appreciated. . Edited 24 June , 2019 by Boomstick New pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 24 June , 2019 Share Posted 24 June , 2019 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schützen-(Füsilier-)Regiment_„Prinz_Georg“_(Königlich_Sächsisches)_Nr._108 108.R.12.217 Schützenregiment 108. 12. Kompagnie. Waffe Nr. 217 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 29 June , 2019 Share Posted 29 June , 2019 B.K.13. Not sure, but I guess Bayerische Kriegsschule , Waffe Nr. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 30 June , 2019 Share Posted 30 June , 2019 In the book by Wacker/Görtz is a B.K.1 mentioned. It means Bezirkskommando, used in Bavaria around 1901 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 30 June , 2019 Share Posted 30 June , 2019 Dann lag ich leider daneben. Falsch geraten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 6 July , 2019 Share Posted 6 July , 2019 On 30/06/2019 at 07:48, The Prussian said: In the book by Wacker/Görtz is a B.K.1 mentioned. It means Bezirkskommando, used in Bavaria around 1901 That is the correct reading, indeed. Respectfully D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted 7 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 July , 2019 Thank you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 July , 2019 Share Posted 9 July , 2019 Woops! replied to an earlier post of this at https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/273181-german-bayonet-markings-help/ and yes, Bezirks kommando probable - but where is the letter signifying location or armee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 OK, so this is an S.98 n.A, and so dates to around 1902-1914... In this case the 1897 or 1909 regulations apply for the marking and a "B.K." marking is for Bezirkskommando BUT should be followed by an initial letter for where that particular office was. This is stated quite clearly in the 1897 and 1909 regulations. 1897 says in its list of examples on p.9, Roman numerals were to be used for Bezirkskommando marks "in Verbindung mit dem Namen" - "in combination with the (place) name"; and on p. 28 gives as an example "B.K.17.S.7." for "Bezirkskommando 17 Sprottau (waffe) 7" - that's Szprotawa, in modern Poland. 1909 says on p. 14, Roman numerals are used to indicate individual Bezirkommandos "in Verbindung mit die Stadtenamen indicated in lateinischen Buchstaben "- "the city name indicated Latin letters". As an example from my own unit listings I can offer an S.98 marked "B.K.E.1.", which is for "Bezirkskommando Erlangen, Waffe Nr. 1." BUT, for an exception that proves the rule with Boomstick's one, I also have another S.98 marked "B.K.6", i.e., with no place name letter... I wonder if somebody goofed here and in the "B.K.6" example and, given the lack of space on an S.98 crossguard and what we see is the Bezirkskommando number, i.e., '13', and the place name and weapon were supposed to be added on the other side, but somebody forgot! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 Sorry Julian, I am a greenhorn in this matter. But why not Bayerische Kriegsschule, Waffe 13???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 Very good point! I don't claim to be the expert in these things by any means and I would certainly not rule out this suggestion entirely until I have had a chance to cross-check with the Bavarian marking system up to 1914, which is when their one and only Kriegschule - the Bayerische Kriegsakademie - closed. In fact, is what you have posted here a copy of the Bavarian regulations? I don't recognise it right now and am at work so can't check with my other stuff... And I see a mention of a III Armee Korps there... Well, I have freely admit that I have been interpreting this marking on the basis of the Prussian marking system which the Bavarian system followed with certain specific exceptions, as with their Chevauleger units, which did not exist in Prussia. But if there was only a single Kriegschule in Bavaria, then might they have marked their bayonets simply "B.K.***"? Indeed, I re-stress - is what you have posted above taken from the Bavarian regulations? Boomstick - which ruler is named on the blade spine? Bavaria was ruled by Otto until 1913 and then by Ludwig, but there are Bavarian-marked bayonets with blade spine markings W for Wilhelm of Prussia... Fritz and others, I am certainly beginning to think I took a left turn here when a right turn was required, as Fritz suggested in post no. 3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 Julian, I possess only this page. A copy from internet. And it must be Prussian. The Bavarians started their stamps often with "B" (may be there are exceptions). So my idea B.K. for Bayerische Kriegsschule. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsschule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 (edited) You are indeed quite right that a Bavarian marking should have a 'B' in front but I wondered if they didn't bother pointing this out in their published regulations. I am in any case beginning to think that this is the last third of the Prussian 1909 regulations which I have never really looked at in detail... The subscript at the bottom of p.33 indicates that this right hand page is the start of the third section of pages to be bound into a single volume. Also, you have page numbers 32-33 there, and the 1909 regulations are certainly the longest that I know of. I will check when I get home. Edited 10 July , 2019 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 (edited) Hello! The page, Fritz showed, is prussian. There is a Lehr-Infanterie-Bataillon mentioned. Bavaria didn´t had none... Görtz/Wacker writes to Kriegsschule: K and the weapon number. Bavaria without B and Prussia without town. Strange is that for Bezirkskommando stand for Prussie B.K. with the army corps and for Bavaria from 1901 only B.K. and also B.K. and the corps number for 1901! Both are possible. Why? I don´t know... But at another page stands for B.K.6: Kriegsschule Bayern (from 1858)... Edited 10 July , 2019 by The Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 Difficult to understand, if you do not know the structure of the troop exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 10 July , 2019 Share Posted 10 July , 2019 The structure yes, but the abbreviations no... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 12 hours ago, The Prussian said: Hello! The page, Fritz showed, is prussian. There is a Lehr-Infanterie-Bataillon mentioned. Bavaria didn´t had none... Görtz/Wacker writes to Kriegsschule: K and the weapon number. Bavaria without B and Prussia without town. Strange is that for Bezirkskommando stand for Prussie B.K. with the army corps and for Bavaria from 1901 only B.K. and also B.K. and the corps number for 1901! Both are possible. Why? I don´t know... But at another page stands for B.K.6: Kriegsschule Bayern (from 1858)... Andy, very well spotted on that ! Lehr-Infanterie! In fact what Fritz showed are pages 32-33, the last two but one page of the 1909 regulations. And what do we have on the next page, p.34? - "Bezirkskommando: Weapons are marked B.K. only followed by a consecutive weapons number seperately for each type. If more than one Bezirkskommando in the city Roman numerals will follow the letters B.K. Example, Bezirkskommando Berlin Waffe 7 = B.K.I.7". So, are we agreed? Boomstick's 'B.K.13" is Bezirkskommando Waffe 13? Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 (edited) Hi Julian! I would agree, but I´m puzzled... Look at my list. 1st row: B.K.1 = Bez.Kdo. weapon 1 (Bavaria 1901) 2nd row: B.K.I.7 = Bez.Kdo.I München, weapon 7 (Bavaria 1901) Both are bavarian 1901. Once with corps-number, once without it. Edited 11 July , 2019 by The Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 (edited) You are right to be confused! Broadly speaking, the Bavarian regulations always follow the Prussian ones, so the Bavarian Regulations for 1901 would follow those for Prussia of 1900. So B.K.1 = Bez.Kdo. weapon 1 in noth the Prussian 1900 and the Bavarian 1901. Where Wacker and G are confusing US is the way they give B.K.I.7 = Bez.Kdo.I Berlin weapon 7 if marked according to Prussian 1900 regulations, but Bez.Kdo.I München, weapon 7 if by Bavarian 1901 ones... Obviously, B.K.I.7 can mean anywhere that has more than one Bez.Kdo.... If there is no letter to indicate the place, as in earlier regulations, then it is impossible to say which Bezirkskommando a weapon is marked for - unless, that it is, the weapon is blade-spine marked O or L for Otto or Ludwig, for Bavaria, etc. I find Wacker and G as a guide to weapons markings often very useful - but very confusing sometimes as they don't always explain the reasoning behind their identifications.... Julian Edited 11 July , 2019 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 The question is, in which period that weapon was worn. Note footnote 4: 4) Nachdem 1888 die Einteilung in Landwehr-Bezirksbataillone in Wegfall gekommen ist die kurze Bezeichnung nach dem Stabsquartier "Bezirkskommando N.N." eingeführt. That means, before 1888 there were only Landwehr-Bezirksbataillone in Bavaria and after 1888, the different Bez.Kdos. received their numbers. So the terminus "Bezirkskommando N.N." was introduced in 1888. N.N. means "Nomen nominandum". That was used, if different numbers are possible (like in Bavaria I., II. or III. Corps) So as I do understand it: Before 1888 it only was marked as "Bezirkskommando", after 1888 Bezirkskommando I., II, or III. From the book: "Die Organisation, Bekleidung, Ausrüstung und Bewaffnung der Königlich Bayerischen Armee von 1806 bis 1906" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 Andy, Thanks again! You do know your literature don't you! And even better, I have just found a downloadable copy! At: http://digital.bib-bvb.de/view/bvbmets/viewer.0.6.4.jsp?folder_id=0&dvs=1562822370688~113&pid=3155201&locale=en&usePid1=true&usePid2=true Well, Boomstick's bayonet is a S.98n.A, and so made 1902-1914, long past 1888... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 11 July , 2019 Share Posted 11 July , 2019 Ok, so I´ll be wrong with the date... This is brilliant. Unfortunately without the plates... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted 12 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2019 Well guys first I don't know how to thank you guys for all the great info. I am really trying to following everything you guys are talking about but I feel stupid because i am a little lost. But there is one good thing I gave you guys a tough one lol. So when was it made?. Is it a Bavarian or Prussian bayonet??. Thanks again guys great job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted 12 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2019 Well guys first I don't know how to thank you guys for all the great info. I am really trying to following everything you guys are talking about but I feel stupid because i am a little lost. But there is one good thing I gave you guys a tough one lol. So when was it made?. Is it a Bavarian or Prussian bayonet??. Thanks again guys great job Here is the info on the spine not sure what it means but trajen you wanted to see this does it help?? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Posted 12 July , 2019 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2019 I guess my very last question on this is value. I would never get rid of it but i.would like to kinda know.a ballpark value so if anyone has any ideas that would be great. Thanks robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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