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fsands

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fsands

Hi,

 

Trying a shot in the dark here... I have managed to find some incredible stories of the former students of Lasswade serving in the Great War, however there are some that appear to be missing completely. Below are the names which I have been unable to find information on AT ALL! I'm at a loss on how to continue with the 7 names below. I have no service number, regiment, date of birth or death. All I know is that they attended Lasswade School. They may be from Lasswade or the surrounding area: Roslin, Loanhead, Dalkeith, Gilmeton for example.

 

James Anderson

John R Garry (Different to the chemist John Garry of the Indian Reserve Army)

Samuel Hay

Alex McDonald

George McDonald

James Small

Thomas Watson

 

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

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PRC

Have you already discounted these two with a Lasswade connection on Soldiers Died in the Great War.

 

Private 1903 James Anderson was killed in action on the 28th April 1915 while serving at Gallipoli with the 5th Battalion, Royal Scots. He was born Lasswade and enlisted Edinburgh. No place of residence is shown.

Commowealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) have no additional information. He is remembered on the Helles Memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/698103/anderson,-james/

 

Private 4547 George McDonald was killed in action on the 11th June 1915 whilst serving in France & Flanders with the 8th Battalion, Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment). He was born Lasswade, resident Polton, Midlothian and enlisted Loanhead, Midlothian.

CWGC additional information is that he was the Son of David and Elizabeth McDonald, of Polton Cottages, Polton, Lasswade, Midlothian. He is commemorated on the Le Touret Memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/856665/mcdonald,-george/

 

While looking for more information on George I came across this thread.

 

The creator ELTORO1960 is based in Newtongrange and is researching Midlothian War Memorials, so might be worth PM’ing.

 

My search also took me to the Midlothian Remembers part of the Midlothian Council website. One of the names listed is a James Fraser Small who died of wounds in Macedonia on the 10th November 1917, aged 36. He was Corporal 65286 in the 192nd Heavy Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery. He was the youngest son of John and Janet Small (nee Campbell) and the husband of Catherine McKay Urquhart. He is apparently remembered on the Bonnyrigg War Memoial and at Cockpen Parish Church. The obituary they have for him is “[Dalkeith Advertiser 22 November 1917]: Mrs Small, 60 Albion Road, Edinburgh, has received official information that her husband, Corporal James Fraser Small 65286, R.G.A., died of wounds on the 10th November at Macedonia. Prior to enlistment he was a tailor with Mr Anderson, George Street, Edinburgh, and was well known in athletic circles. He was the youngest son of the late Mr John Small, Dundas Street, Bonnyrigg, and was 36 years of age. He was well known in the Bonnyrigg district, and many friends will regret to learn of his early demise.”

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=2ahUKEwix5d_l2fbiAhUKhlwKHX17BR0QFjAJegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.midlothian.gov.uk%2Fdownload%2Fdownloads%2Fid%2F281%2Fww1_casualties_in_midlothian_by_regiment_letter_r.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0aBJDfDqCiYCvLANC8X-8l

On CWGC that man is simply recorded as J Small with no additional information. He is buried at Salonika (Lembet Road) Military Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/625525/small,-/

 

Hope that gets you started.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

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Neill Gilhooley

Nothing conclusive from 9th Royal Scots, but 8th RS more likely. I did find a number of Lasswade references though, I assume you have plenty of gen on Albert R Lawrence, Andrew Carmichael, James Gordon Rigby and Hugh Shirlaw, all schooled in Lasswade?

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/ 

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BillyH
11 hours ago, fsands said:

All I know is that they attended Lasswade School.

Yes, but are they casualties (on a memorial), or did they just serve?

 

BillyH.

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PRC

I've just seen a picture of the memorial at Lasswade School and it looks like James Small is actually a James B. Small.

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic6717.html

 

Unless someone made a carving mistake or there was an error in the original list, that possibly rules out James Fraser Small from Bonnybriggs identified above.

 

A candidate that might be worth investigating further is Lieutenant James Bruce Small, 101 Squadron, RAF who was killed (sourced SDGW) on the 2nd August 1918 at the age of 22 and who is buried at  Crouy British Cemetery, Crouy-sur-Somme. The additional information on CWGC is son of Mr. and Mrs. J. Kay Small, of 60, Leamington Terrace, Edinburgh. Native of Scotland.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/71520/small,-james-bruce/

 

I couldn't see a likely birth record on Scotlands People or find an obituary in Flight Magazine.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Just seen BillyH's question - the wording on the memorial is "Former Pupils of Lasswade High School who fell in the war".

 

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RaySearching
Posted (edited)

Check this one out for James Anderson

mid.JPG.091e03dad98da4afc68b97c974a564c5.JPG

Source Midlothian Roll Of Honour

 

Ray

 

Upps cannot seem to embed link 

 

 

Edited by RaySearching

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fsands
8 hours ago, PRC said:

Have you already discounted these two with a Lasswade connection on Soldiers Died in the Great War.

 

Private 1903 James Anderson was killed in action on the 28th April 1915 while serving at Gallipoli with the 5th Battalion, Royal Scots. He was born Lasswade and enlisted Edinburgh. No place of residence is shown.

Commowealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) have no additional information. He is remembered on the Helles Memorial. 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/698103/anderson,-james/

 

Private 4547 George McDonald was killed in action on the 11th June 1915 whilst serving in France & Flanders with the 8th Battalion, Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment). He was born Lasswade, resident Polton, Midlothian and enlisted Loanhead, Midlothian.

CWGC additional information is that he was the Son of David and Elizabeth McDonald, of Polton Cottages, Polton, Lasswade, Midlothian. He is commemorated on the Le Touret Memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/856665/mcdonald,-george/

 

While looking for more information on George I came across this thread.

 

The creator ELTORO1960 is based in Newtongrange and is researching Midlothian War Memorials, so might be worth PM’ing.

 

My search also took me to the Midlothian Remembers part of the Midlothian Council website. One of the names listed is a James Fraser Small who died of wounds in Macedonia on the 10th November 1917, aged 36. He was Corporal 65286 in the 192nd Heavy Battery of the Royal Garrison Artillery. He was the youngest son of John and Janet Small (nee Campbell) and the husband of Catherine McKay Urquhart. He is apparently remembered on the Bonnyrigg War Memoial and at Cockpen Parish Church. The obituary they have for him is “[Dalkeith Advertiser 22 November 1917]: Mrs Small, 60 Albion Road, Edinburgh, has received official information that her husband, Corporal James Fraser Small 65286, R.G.A., died of wounds on the 10th November at Macedonia. Prior to enlistment he was a tailor with Mr Anderson, George Street, Edinburgh, and was well known in athletic circles. He was the youngest son of the late Mr John Small, Dundas Street, Bonnyrigg, and was 36 years of age. He was well known in the Bonnyrigg district, and many friends will regret to learn of his early demise.”

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=2ahUKEwix5d_l2fbiAhUKhlwKHX17BR0QFjAJegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.midlothian.gov.uk%2Fdownload%2Fdownloads%2Fid%2F281%2Fww1_casualties_in_midlothian_by_regiment_letter_r.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0aBJDfDqCiYCvLANC8X-8l

On CWGC that man is simply recorded as J Small with no additional information. He is buried at Salonika (Lembet Road) Military Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/625525/small,-/

 

Hope that gets you started.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Hi Peter,

 

Thank you so much for your help. I think you're onto something with George and James. Can I ask, how did you find out where James Anderson lived? It wasn't on cwgc.

 

I have been using the Midlothian roll of honour as a starting point for my research and branched out from there. They listed another James B Small (my apologies I omitted the B, a typo on my part) as being on the LasswadeWar memorial.

 

Thank you so much for the others!

 

Fraser

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fsands
10 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Check this one out for James Anderson

mid.JPG.091e03dad98da4afc68b97c974a564c5.JPG

Source Midlothian Roll Of Honour

 

Ray

 

Upps cannot seem to embed link 

 

 

My apologies! I don't know how I missed him!

 

Very embarrassed!

 

Thank you for finding him,

 

Fraser

32 minutes ago, BillyH said:

Yes, but are they casualties (on a memorial), or did they just serve?

 

BillyH.

They are casualties.

 

Fraser

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fsands
27 minutes ago, PRC said:

I've just seen a picture of the memorial at Lasswade School and it looks like James Small is actually a James B. Small.

http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic6717.html

 

Unless someone made a carving mistake or there was an error in the original list, that possibly rules out James Fraser Small from Bonnybriggs identified above.

 

A candidate that might be worth investigating further is Lieutenant James Bruce Small, 101 Squadron, RAF who was killed (sourced SDGW) on the 2nd August 1918 at the age of 22 and who is buried at  Crouy British Cemetery, Crouy-sur-Somme. The additional information on CWGC is son of Mr. and Mrs. J. Kay Small, of 60, Leamington Terrace, Edinburgh. Native of Scotland.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/71520/small,-james-bruce/

 

I couldn't see a likely birth record on Scotlands People or find an obituary in Flight Magazine.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Just seen BillyH's question - the wording on the memorial is "Former Pupils of Lasswade High School who fell in the war".

 

You're spot on! Been hunting through the Edinburgh University Roll of Honours. It lists Lieutenant James Bruce Small as havign attended Lasswade!

 

Thank you so much for your help!

 

Fraser

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fsands
1 hour ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Nothing conclusive from 9th Royal Scots, but 8th RS more likely. I did find a number of Lasswade references though, I assume you have plenty of gen on Albert R Lawrence, Andrew Carmichael, James Gordon Rigby and Hugh Shirlaw, all schooled in Lasswade?

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/ 

Hi Neill,

 

Yeah I have a fair bit on Albert, Andrew and James. Still searching for extra photos or anything extra though. Had a look through your excellent site! Hadn't come across Hugh Shirlaw, my starting point was the casualties so didn't know of any others who had also served.

 

Many thanks for your help!

 

Fraser

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PRC

 

28 minutes ago, fsands said:

I think you're onto something with George and James. Can I ask, how did you find out where James Anderson lived? It wasn't on cwgc.

 

To be precise I don't know where he lived, just where he was born.

 

Soldiers Died in the Great War is a database widely available on the main Genealogy sites or as a purchaseable CD-ROM from the Navy and Army Press. Originally two multi-volume sets of books Soldiers Died in the Great War (Other Ranks) and Cross of Sacrifice (Officers) published by HMSO in the early twenties so reflecting the information available at the time and drawing on service records that had not yet been weeded or bombed and burnt into oblivion!

 

A keyword search of just "Lasswade" brings up 137 matches. A match of the similar database WW1 Casualties brings up an additional 3.

BTW I tried the same search for Roslin, Loanhead, Dalkeith, Gilmeton, (and later Bonnybriggs and Newtongrange when it looked like they may be relevant) and checked the outstanding surnames on your list. Note there were candidates for the surnames for all of them but not with the right first names. A bit of digging might be advisable to confirm the first names shown on the High School Memorial were (a) the first names they were known by legally and (b) the only first names they had.

 

As they were at High School I'm assuming it's unlikely that any changed their surname on their mothers remarrying. A potentially more likely scenario is a family with a step-father where the son reverts to his birth surname on reaching adulthood. Again a check of the civil records might throw up where that is a possibility.

 

It's likely they were all with the armed forces of the Empire including the UK. It's worthwhile investigating appearances on the CWGC of soldiers from the overseas Dominions who died - the national archives for Australia & Canada in particular have practically every thing you could hope for (bar a picture in the file!). However one thing to bear in mind is the high levels of immigration to the United States - an unaccounted name could possibly have served in their armed forces. There is no equivalent of the CWGC database, making it difficult if you don't know which particular state someone was living in. The US census for 1910 is available on line but as the birthplace is generally shown as Scotland, if you have a fairly common name it doesn't really help unless other family members or a wife and children were with them. US draft cards from 1917 & 1918 are available for most of the states, and some do give a more detailed birthplace.

 

Other reasons why someone might be on the memorial but difficult to track down - low probability but possible.

They died after discharge from the armed forces. There is a long-running In from the Cold Project to try and get missed men commemorated, but the cause of death has to be directly related to any injury or illness caused or exacerbated by service. A local community might have a lower threshold for inclusion on a memorial than the CWGC and it's predecessor the Imperial War Graves Commission, whose remit is set down by law.

They died after the official cut-off date for being treated as Great War related War Dead - July 1921.

They served in the Merchant Marine and were not put forward for inclusion in the CWGC records - given that split between the army and the navy identified on SDGW I'm guessing Lasswade didn't produce many sailors.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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Neill Gilhooley
1 hour ago, fsands said:

I have a fair bit on Albert, Andrew and James

Fraser,

Best of luck with your project. We'd be interested to hear of your finished work. 

Neill

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PRC
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, fsands said:

You're spot on! Been hunting through the Edinburgh University Roll of Honours. It lists Lieutenant James Bruce Small as havign attended Lasswade!

SDGW shows that Lieutenant J B Small was originally with the 1st/4th Battalion, Rifle Brigade. As with all officers, no place of birth or residence is shown.

 

His commission into the Rifle Brigade (Regular Army) effective 26th September 1917 appeared in the supplement edition of  the London Gazette dated 13th October 1917.

List heading here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30333/supplement/10560/data.pdf

His name was on this page, (top left) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30333/supplement/10561/data.pdf

 

His summary service record at the National Archive shows he was born 4th November 1896.

His home address was shown as 60 Leamington Terrace, Edinburgh and his next of kin was his father, J.K. Small of the same address. He joined the Royal Flying Corps on the 24th November 1917 from the 5th Battalion Rifle Brigade. An entry shows him as a Flying Officer from the 15th March 1918. He transferred to the new RAF on it’s creation. He was killed in action on the 2nd August 1918.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8227176

(If you click “Preview an image of this record” you can see a watermarked version – four pages plus a coversheet. Some of the watermarks obscure key details and dates.)

 

As he was in the Royal Air Force I would not routinely expect to find a MiC but I checked anyway.

 

There is one listed in the Discovery Catalogue for a Pioneer 176685 James Bruce Hall, Royal Engineers who became a Lieutenant in the R.F.C and R.A.F. He qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal. The remarks column notes he was commissioned on the 12th October 1917 and that the medals were to be issued by the Air Ministry. As an officer his medals had to be applied for. The reverse side of the card, (viewable on Ancestry but not at the National Archive) shows that the person who applied for them was a Mrs Ida Maud Small, of 60 Leamington Terrace, Edinburgh.

 

The 101st Squadron was a night bomber squadron flying, (by that stage of the war), the antiquated FE2b.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._101_Squadron_RAF

The FE2b was a two seater, so there would most likely have been a second crew member.

 

There is indeed another member of 101 Squadron buried in Crouy British Cemetery and who died the same day – Second Lieutenant Thomas Arthur Nutcombe, RAF and East Lancashire Regiment. He was the son of Thomas and Mary Nutcombe, of Cambridge.

Source: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/71402/nutcombe,-thomas-arthur/

 

Nutcombe appeared in the Casualty list published on the 22nd August 1918 as Killed, while Small appeared in the following days list.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1918/1918 - 0970.html?search=Nutcombe

 

A summary of the events of the day in the air over the Western Front contains no reference to these two men.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70367

 

May be worth posting a separate request in the War in the Air board to get the attention of those with a lot more expertise than a generalist like me.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit, until you receive other confirmation it should not automatically be assumed that Nutcombe and Small were in the same plane or evn involved in the same incident that led to their deaths.

 

Edited by PRC
see edit

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fsands
1 hour ago, PRC said:

SDGW shows that Lieutenant J B Small was originally with the 1st/4th Battalion, Rifle Brigade. As with all officers, no place of birth or residence is shown.

 

His commission into the Rifle Brigade (Regular Army) effective 26th September 1917 appeared in the supplement edition of  the London Gazette dated 13th October 1917.

List heading here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30333/supplement/10560/data.pdf

His name was on this page, (top left) https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30333/supplement/10561/data.pdf

 

His summary service record at the National Archive shows he was born 4th November 1896.

His home address was shown as 60 Leamington Terrace, Edinburgh and his next of kin was his father, J.K. Small of the same address. He joined the Royal Flying Corps on the 24th November 1917 from the 5th Battalion Rifle Brigade. An entry shows him as a Flying Officer from the 15th March 1918. He transferred to the new RAF on it’s creation. He was killed in action on the 2nd August 1918.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8227176

(If you click “Preview an image of this record” you can see a watermarked version – four pages plus a coversheet. Some of the watermarks obscure key details and dates.)

 

As he was in the Royal Air Force I would not routinely expect to find a MiC but I checked anyway.

 

There is one listed in the Discovery Catalogue for a Pioneer 176685 James Bruce Hall, Royal Engineers who became a Lieutenant in the R.F.C and R.A.F. He qualified for the Victory Medal and British War Medal. The remarks column notes he was commissioned on the 12th October 1917 and that the medals were to be issued by the Air Ministry. As an officer his medals had to be applied for. The reverse side of the card, (viewable on Ancestry but not at the National Archive) shows that the person who applied for them was a Mrs Ida Maud Small, of 60 Leamington Terrace, Edinburgh.

 

The 101st Squadron was a night bomber squadron flying, (by that stage of the war), the antiquated FE2b.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._101_Squadron_RAF

The FE2b was a two seater, so there would most likely have been a second crew member.

 

There is indeed another member of 101 Squadron buried in Crouy British Cemetery and who died the same day – Second Lieutenant Thomas Arthur Nutcombe, RAF and East Lancashire Regiment. He was the son of Thomas and Mary Nutcombe, of Cambridge.

Source: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/71402/nutcombe,-thomas-arthur/

 

Nutcombe appeared in the Casualty list published on the 22nd August 1918 as Killed, while Small appeared in the following days list.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1918/1918 - 0970.html?search=Nutcombe

 

A summary of the events of the day in the air over the Western Front contains no reference to these two men.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70367

 

May be worth posting a separate request in the War in the Air board to get the attention of those with a lot more expertise than a generalist like me.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit, until you receive other confirmation it should not automatically be assumed that Nutcombe and Small were in the same plane or evn involved in the same incident that led to their deaths.

 

Thank you for your expertise Peter!

 

34 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

Nutcombe and Small were both killed in the same aircraft in a flying accident according to the Casualty Card in the RAF Story Vault http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/nutcombe-t.a.-thomas-arthur (Hover over the image to enlarge the text).

Thank you for this also DavidOwen!

 

After viewing the casualty card above I was able to find James Bruce Small's which reference Nutcombe being in the plane also. 

 

Thank you both for your help.

 

Peter your knowledge and research skills are phenomenal, thank you for your help!

 

Fraser

4 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Fraser,

Best of luck with your project. We'd be interested to hear of your finished work. 

Neill

May take a while to get it all finalised, but very happy to share everything I find.

 

Fraser

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PRC
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, fsands said:

Peter your knowledge and research skills are phenomenal, thank you for your help!

 

Flattery will get you everywhere :)

 

My access to Scottish civil records is fairly minimal so I’m afraid I’m not going to be of much use, but if you bear with me I’ll give it a try. For instance, my access to the Scottish census up to and including 1901 is really basic, and doesn’t always show me who else is living in the household.

 

However on the 1901 Census of Scotland there is a 6 year old Samuel Hay, born Coldstream Berwickshire, who was recorded as resident on the High Street, Lasswade. He was the son of the head of the household.

 

A search of Soldiers Died in the Great War  for anyone with the surname Hay, born Coldstream, brings up Private 28998 Samuel Hay, 1st Battalion Kings Own Scottish Borderers, who was resident and enlisted Edinburgh. He had previously been 1774, R.A.M.C.

Samuel was killed in action on the 5th February 1918 whilst serving in France & Flanders.

 

The CWGC entry shows him as aged 22 and the son of Mrs. Jane Hay, of 6, Bothwell Street, Edinburgh. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/839007/hay,-samuel/

Depending on how the birthdays fall and how accurately the age has been counted a child that was 6 at the start of April 1901 could have been a man aged 22 in February 1918.

 

There are two MiC’s for him – one as S. Hay and one as Samuel, both quoting the same units and service numbers. His MiC in the name of Samuel shows him awarded the British War Medal and Victory Medal, with an asterick indicating the medals were issued by the RAMC.

The one in the name of S. Hay covers his 1915 Star, having landed in the Balkans Theatre of War, (2b – which is Gallipoli and the Aegean Islands) on the 6th June 1915. The remarks column notes he was “KinA, 5.2.18”.

 

Now as I said, I can’t see other residents in the same household. So it may be a complete co-incidence that there is a 28 year old married woman Jane Hay, born Coldstream, who was recorded as he wife of the head of a household on the High Street, Lasswade.

 

Playing around with the search criteria brings up some other potential members of the same  household.

 

There is a 29 year old married Baker, David Hay, recorded as the head of the household of a dwelling on the High Street, Lasswade.

 

There is an 8 year old Robert Hay, born Coldstream, son of the head of a household on the High Street, Lasswade.

 

There is a 3 year old Jeanie Hay, born Coldstream, daughter of the head of a household on the High Street, Lasswade.

 

There is a 1 year old Thomas Hay, born Coldstream, son of the head of a household on the High Street, Lasswade. If it is one family that would make it appear that they had only recently moved to Lasswade.

 

So still needs a bit more proof – finding them on the 1911 Census  or a later Trade Directory might show a long term connection to the Lasswade area.

 

It might also be helpful to point out that the address shown on the CWGC stems from the mid-1920s when the Imperial War Graves Commission was in contact with next of kin about their role to provide a permament memorial where a headstone might be required. In many cases the next of kin were still, if not at the same address, then they were in the same village or town. But of course that wasn’t always the case. So his mother, Mrs Jane Hay, could have moved to Edinburgh in 1901 or 1921 or even later.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

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fsands
13 hours ago, PRC said:

A search of Soldiers Died in the Great War  for anyone with the surname Hay, born Coldstream, brings up Private 28998 Samuel Hay, 1st Battalion Kings Own Scottish Borderers, who was resident and enlisted Edinburgh. He had previously been 1774, R.A.M.C.

Samuel was killed in action on the 5th February 1918 whilst serving in France & Flanders.

 

The CWGC entry shows him as aged 22 and the son of Mrs. Jane Hay, of 6, Bothwell Street, Edinburgh. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/839007/hay,-samuel/

Depending on how the birthdays fall and how accurately the age has been counted a child that was 6 at the start of April 1901 could have been a man aged 22 in February 1918.

 

That's amazing thank you! He was one I had on a list of "potential" soldiers. He seemed to have a slightly unusual name.

 

The remaining three have more common names which means tracking down is a lot harder.

 

Many thanks for all your help again!

 

Fraser

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PRC
Posted (edited)
On 19/06/2019 at 21:23, fsands said:

John R Garry (Different to the chemist John Garry of the Indian Reserve Army)

 

Attached is a death notice that appeared in the edition of The Scotsman, Wednesday, 16 January 1918.

 

GARRY.-Killed in action on Oct. 4th, Pte. JOHN ROBERT GARRY, Australian Imperial Force, eldest beloved son of John and Mrs. Garry, Rome Street, Toowomba, and grandson of the late John Garry and Mrs Garry, Polton Bank, Polton.

 

That man on CWGC is:-

Private GARRY, JOHN ROBERT

Service Number…………. 2072

Died:…………………….. 04/10/1917

Aged:……………………. 27

Unit:………………………42nd Bn. Australian Infantry, A.I.F.

Son of John and Jane Garry, of Rome St., Newtown, Toowoomba, Queensland.

Commemorated at YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

Location: West-Vlaanderen, Belgium

Source: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/923689/garry,-john-robert/

 

However his records at the Australian National Archive show him as born Cooktown, Queensland.  He was 26 years 4 months old when he enlisted on the 12th May 1916. His mother was Jane Garry.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4026619

 

If this was a village or town memorial I’d say that would be enough to establish a reason why his name might have been put forward for inclusion on a war memorial. But if this is based on attendance at Lasswade High School that’s a bit more problematic.

 

The working assumption is that he was sent back to Scotland for his education and lived with his grandparents. I don’t know what ages a Scootish High School catered for at that time but if it was 8/9 to 13 and John Robert Garry was born in Queensland, Australia, circa 1890, then he might be expected to have turned up on the 1901 Census of Scotland.

 

The only Garry’s I could find in the Lasswade area was a married couple, John Garry, a 75 year old Retired Joiner, born Edinburgh and Madeline Garry, aged 73 and born Westfield, Clackmannanshire. They were living at Polton Road, Lasswade.

 

Going back to the 1881 census John, (55) and Madeline, (53) had a 20 year old son John Garry, an Apprentice Joiner.

 

Looking again at the Australian Army Record, the civilian trade of John Robert Garry was Carpenter.

 

I then looked at the shipping records for passengers leaving the UK, (transcripts only unfortunately), and came across a few interesting ones.

 

An 8 year old John Garry sailed from London bound for Cooktown, Queensland aboard the Duke of Buckingham in 1898. As I can’t see the rest of the passenger manifest all that I can see is that in 1908 aboard the Duke of Buckingham, sailing from London and bound for Cooktown were a Mrs J. Garry, a Cecil Garry aged 6 and a Mary Garry, no age recorded. While it’s very likely they were all travelling together, that can’t be taken for granted.

 

A 20 year old John Garry sailed from London bound for Fremantle, Western Australia aboard the Armadale in 1911. There was also a 30 year old Frank Garry who made the same trip.

 

Still not a smoking gun but seems likely that he did come to the UK,

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

 

BTW a thread I contributed to a few weeks back mentioned that The Scotsman newspaper can also be accessed online at The National Library of Scotland - I found this at the British Newspaper Archive.

 

The Scotsman - Wednesday 16 January 1918 p10 John Garry death notice sourced BNA crop.jpg

Edited by PRC
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fsands

Lasswade had a lower and a higher grade school at that time, so 8/9 years of age sounds about right. This adds a whole new dimension of this project for me!  The 42nd battalion battalion faught in the offensive at passchaendale ridge at the time he was killed. I have been fortunate enough to walk that ridge! 

 

 I saw this name on cwgc when I searched earlier, I myself was born in Australian so dismissed it as hopeful thinking. I have family in the AIF who faught at polygon wood. 

 

As a school we have laid a wreath at the menin gate ceremony, for the last two years at least. Whilst we lay it to remember all fallen soldiers it is incredible to know that there is a former Lasswade student is amongst the many names on the walls.

 

I can’t thank you enough for this information!

 

Fraser

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PRC
9 hours ago, fsands said:

The 42nd battalion battalion faught in the offensive at passchaendale ridge at the time he was killed. I have been fortunate enough to walk that ridge! 

 

 I saw this name on cwgc when I searched earlier, I myself was born in Australian so dismissed it as hopeful thinking. I have family in the AIF who faught at polygon wood.

Yes I saw him too when I did my first look, but as the Australian Army records showed him as born and resident out there, and the criteria was someone who attended the school, I too ruled him out.

 

Should be plenty available on the unit and the events of the day. The War Diaries are available for free on line:-

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1339187

 

As is C.H. Bean's Official History of Australia in the War of 1914–1918

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1416844

 

Looks like he is remembered on the Roll of Honour in St Stephens, Toowoomba, (right hand panel, about half way down on the wooden memorial, bottom left hand column of the stone memorial)

https://www.qldwarmemorials.com.au/memorial?id=1164

https://www.qldwarmemorials.com.au/memorial?id=1164#memorial-gallery-1

https://www.qldwarmemorials.com.au/memorial?id=1164#memorial-gallery-5

He is probably also on the Toowomba Roll of Honour memorial board, but there isn't enough detail on the image to confirm.

https://www.qldwarmemorials.com.au/memorial?id=1265

 

Doesn't appear to be a missing persons enquiry held by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

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PRC
Posted (edited)

On a separate note I see above that you have started with the casualties. I don't know if it's any help to you but the attached cutting I came across in the British Newspaper Archive is for a man who probably won't crop up in the main official sources so I don't know if he survived or not.

 

This appeared in the edition of The Scotsman dated Saturday 21 October 1916.

MIDLOTHIAN MEN AND THE DEFENCE OF KUT-EL-AMARAH.

 

Mr Arthur W.M.Tod, who has been recommended by Major-General Townshend for distinguished service as a civilian during the defence of Kur-el-Amarah, is a Midlothian man. He was taken prisoner at the surrender of Kut. He is managing partner of Messrs Lynch Brothers, the well known shippers and merchants, and has been resident at Bagdad during the last fourteen years. He went through the South African War, and was afterwards engaged at the War Office in London. He is the youngest son of the late Mr. John Tod, J.P., papermaker, Lasswade, well known as an author under the pen name of “John Strathesk(?)”. He was educated at Lasswade School, George Watson’s College, and Edinburgh University, and was for some years connected with an Edinburgh firm of lawyers. He is 37 years of age.

 

From the way it’s written I’m not sure if it’s the son or the father who attended Lasswade School – I’m a bit confused by the timeline as well but assume that’s over-rounding!

 

I know that in a reflection of the Turkish Army practices, captured officers were very well treated, while the other ranks are treated like they are, to put it politely, of no consequence. Thus of the men of the 2nd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, who marched into captivity at the fall of Kut at the end of April 1916, barely a quarter survived – a figure distorted by the high number of officers. This was a familiar tale for the British units. Want I don't know about is the fate of civilians, particularly those captured rather than just interned at the start of the war.

 

However as you’re familiar with the Edinburgh University records you might be able to track down more information about his fate.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

The Scotsman - Saturday 21 October 1916 p8 Midlothian Men and the Defence of Kut-el-Amarah sourced BNA. crop.jpeg

Edited by PRC
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charlie962
Posted (edited)

At Peter's prompting there are a number of references to Tod in relation to Kut. A good summary is here:

 

Sandes, In Kut and Captivity
p282 (see also p192)

(After fall of Kut, on arrival at Baghdad)
...".Cree, of Messrs. Blockey, Cree
& Co., and Mr. Tod, of Messrs. Lynch Brothers, were brought
before the senior Turkish officer by request of the Turks,
and were closely questioned by them. The two civilians
were in rather a difficult position, and we felt anxious
about how they would be treated. It appears that on
the outbreak of war the Turks interned all British subjects
in Baghdad, but that subsequently they allowed the men
to leave Turkey, and the subjects of other nations at war
with Turkey were similarly treated. A large party of
civilian Europeans consequently left Baghdad in November
 1914, travelling across to the Euphrates and up that
river, and then by rail to Aleppo, whence they reached a
Mediterranean seaport (Mersin, I believe) and took ship.
They had been told first that they would be interned at
Kaisarie in Anatolia (see Map No. 9), but when they
protested against this destination they were put under
orders to go to Constantinople. Eventually, however,
they were allowed to leave Turkey, as I have related.
Their wives and families were not allowed to leave the
country and remained at Baghdad under the protection
of the United States Consul.

Mr. Cree on release took ship to Busrah via the Suez
Canal and the Red Sea ; and Mr. Tod, after proceeding to
England, eventually went also to Mesopotamia, where
he and Mr. Cree continued their business as merchants,
but also assisted our Government at times, and subse-
quently accompanied our advance to Kut and beyond.
Mr. Cree held a post in our Political Service, and Mr. Tod
accompanied the Flying Column at the Battle of Ctesi-
phon as a guide and did a great dealof business in supplying
stores for Government purposes. Hence, when Kut sur-
rendered and both these gentlemen were recaptured by
the Turks, considerable doubt was felt as to whether the
enemy would take the view that they were strictly non-
combatants, as was actually the case. After a very
searching examination about their identity and their
employment with our forces, they were marched off under
a guard, together with another civilian (Mr. Tom Dexter),
and we saw them no more for a time. Subsequently
they were brought to the Cavalry Barracks where we were
quartered in Baghdad, but they were soon moved again
and we did not meet after this. I believe, however, that
they came to no bodily harm, though rumours reached us
that they had been imprisoned in Constantinople after
trial by a court-martial which had first condemned them
to death."

 

 

And this from Loyalties Mesopotamia p135

................................................were marched 
through the crowded streets of Baghdad for some hours. As they 
passed the citadel they saw at one of the barred windows three English- 
men, Cree, Tod, and Dexter, who had been arrested in Baghdad when 
war broke out but had been allowed to leave Turkey by way of 
Mersina. They had patriotically returned to Mesopotamia and had 
been attached to Townshend’s force. When captured they were 
arrested on the charge of breaking parole, falsely alleged to have been 
given during their former captivity; after spending some months of 
suspense in prison they were acquitted and treated as prisoners of war. 

 

 

 

London Gazette 1/6/20

OBE Civil

1610394518_AWLG4Jun1920.JPG.aa2cf1a05c622eb834bd40f2c636dd8d.JPG

 

Charlie

 

Edited by charlie962

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fsands

Thank you Peter and Charlie that information is incredible! I will definitely be investigating and including that story!

 

I've had a quick look through George Watson’s College’s war records. It lists civilian POW’s from WW2 so would assume Tod would be listed. I have found a service roll of honour for Edinburgh university. So will search for Tod in there, not sure if civilians will be included but will certainly check. 

 

A quick search of John Tod and John Strathesk show that his books are still on sale today. However was unable to find any information on the author himself, to determine whether it was he or his son that attended Lasswade.

 

Many thanks again for finding this great story!

 

Fraser

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charlie962
Posted (edited)

 

 

 

 

First name(s) Arthur W Miller
Last name Tod
Service number 8460
Rank Private
Regiment 19 (Lothian) Company 6 Battalion Imperial Yeomanry
Literary references The National Archives WO128. Imperial Yeomanry, Soldiers' Documents, South African War.
Biography -
Notes
QSA Clasps: Cape Colony,Orange Free State,Transvaal, South Africa 1901

 

 

The above came from FindmyPast

His Imperial Yeomanry 1900 Service record is here on FMP

 

FMP have a number of interesting hits for him:

 

623695937_KutTodAWMFMPhits.JPG.1c734ef0e28d64a5dd27ecf99448c7fb.JPG

 

There is also some interesting correspondence in FO 383/225 which is available here on FMP about Tod's , Cree's and Dexter's Turkish captivity. Scroll back and forward from the link.

 

Charlie

   
   
   
   
   
   
   
Edited by charlie962

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PRC
Posted (edited)

The 1906-10 Consular Marriages Index held by the GRO records that the surname of the woman he married was Lanzoni. Cross referencing that entry bring up Aurelia Lanzoni. There are many consular birth registration with the surname Tod in the 20 years after 1906, but none in Iraq - the nearest are in Egypt. There are none in Italy.

 

The name of his wife Aurelia Lanzoni Tod, died 1965, appears on his family headstone. They are recoded at Lasswade, although further checks would be needed to confirm the couple are actually buried there. Headstone can be seen here:-

https://billiongraves.com/grave/person/23362993

 

According to the UK Probate Calendar for 1949, Arthur died on the 17th February 1949 at Lungarno Soderini 5 Florence Italy.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit: A picture of Arthur and Aurelia from 1910, along with a pen picture of the time Aurelia spent in the Yemen in 1907, can be seen here

https://al-bab.com/albab-orig/albab/bys/articles/shipman02.htm

 

Second Edit - that address is now the private Bellini Museum in Florence. It faces onto the Arno in the centre of the city. it can be seen here - the middle building of a cluster of three.  https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museo_Bellini#/media/File:Museo_Bellini_(Firenze).JPG

There are many pictures of the interior that can be viewed on your favourite search engine :-)

There may also be more about the couple in the letters and diaries of Gertrude Bell in the archive at the University of Newcastle.

https://research.ncl.ac.uk/gertrudebell/gertrudebellarchive/

 

Arthur William Millar Tod 1949 Probate Calendar entry crop.png

Edited by PRC
Link to a picture of the couple

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