Edward Hall 4th Dragoon Guards and Machine Gun Corps

[James R]

All

 

My first post on the forum and I am hoping someone may be able to assist me with research into my great great grandfather.

 

His name was Edward Hall and he served in both the 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards and the Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry) during WW1. He enlisted before 1910 and served as a Pte with the service number 5280 in France from 16th August 1914 and qualified for the Mons clasp to his 1914 star, as well as the standard pair.  On 21st July 1916 he transferred to Machine Gun Corps (Cavalry) with number 51974 where he attained the rank of Acting Sergeant according to his medal roll entry.

 

I know he was on the Winifredian over to France and that at some point he was wounded as he appears on the casualty list issued by the home office on 6th December 1914, with reference to the 5th November 1914. Unfortunately the war diary for this date does not mention any casualties.

 

So far I have found his MIC and Medal Roll entries, but I cannot find a service record, SWB or Casualty Transportation/Clearing Station entry, or medicial record for him. I know he suffered shrapnel wounds during the war, and that he received an army pension. Hopefully these were not all destroyed during WW2.

 

He also saw service in Palestine, I assume with MGC, but unsure of which unit/battalion this was with.

 

I have just read Teenage Tommy by Richard van Emden which has fuelled my desire to know more about my relative.  Unfortunately we do not have the medals in the family but I live in hope they may turn up one day for sale.

 

I am doing a research request with the DG musuem to see if they have anything further as well.

 

Would anyone be able to advise where is best to start next to find out more information, or have I covered every source?

Thanks in advance

 

James

 

[Malcolm Linham]

James 

 

 Welcome to the Forum , . 

He was pre war regular and if he served post 1920 then  it is quite possible that his Service record is still with the MOD.    

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records  is the link for the MOD.

 Also you should read Tickled to Death to Go - Memoirs  of a cavalry man in the First World War edited by Richard van Emden this is the story of Benjamin Clouting who also served with the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards at the beginning of the war.

 

Hope this helps and the n best of luck with your research.

 

Malcolm 

 

 

[kenf48]

On 17/06/2019 at 20:22, James R said:

So far I have found his MIC and Medal Roll entries, but I cannot find a service record, SWB or Casualty Transportation/Clearing Station entry, or medicial record for him. I know he suffered shrapnel wounds during the war, and that he received an army pension. Hopefully these were not all destroyed during WW2.

 

He also saw service in Palestine, I assume with MGC, but unsure of which unit/battalion this was with.

 

 

The WFA have entered an agreement with Ancestry to digitise the pension card index.  If he did receive a pension the card index may tell you his unit (it may simply say MGC) but worth a punt, they are unfortunately in Fold 3 on Ancestry which is an additional subscription though they do offer a free trial.

 

Pte Hall's  enlistment in the Dragoons would seem to date from 1902 (5284 enlisted Belfast 4 October 1902/5285 enlisted Belfast on 3 October 1902, both joined 4th Dragoon on 7th October) but there is some ambiguity around the numbers, there is a 5282 allocated on transfer from the 7th Dragoon Guards on the 16th January 1905; his original enlistment was 1902 so perhaps they recycled the number.  

 

Either date would however fit with the enlistment terms of 3 years with the Colours and 9 on Reserve (the terms of enlistment for those who joined in 1902) which would mean if fit, he was still a reservist in August 1914 by a couple of months.

 

The Medal Roll shows he was demobilised to the Army Reserve Class Z on the 21st April 1919, which means he would have been discharged when the Reserve was abolished in March 1920, it is  therefore unlikely any records would be held at the MOD.  As a pre-war regular reservist he would have come under the terms of the Military Service Act in 1916 and discharged at the end of the war having completed his term of engagement.

 

51973 Thomas Caton was transferred to the MGC (Cavalry) from the 7th Dragoon Guards on the 21st July 1916.  He was posted to the BEF in February 1917.

51906  (previously 9th Lancers in France  until 1916) disembarked Alexandria, Egypt on 29th July 1916 and was posted to 21st Squadron.

It is therefore likely he was transferred to the MGC (Cavalry) in July 1916 after he had recovered from his wound, this was the usual course of events.  Men would be posted into the Corps from Home Service Depots.  There is also the possibility if he returned to France before that date he was attached to the MG Squadron of his Regiment.

 

 

The ORBAT for the Egyptian Expeditionary Force in 1918 can be found at this link

https://web.archive.org/web/20150109153754/http://orbat.com/site/history/open4/uk_eygptianexpeditionaryforce1918.pdf

 

You will see the MGC (Cavalry) Squadrons serving in theatre were in the 4th and 5th Cavalry Division respectively.  You are therefore probably looking for the 17th,18th 19th 20th and 21st Squadrons of the MGC (Cavalry).  It's going to be difficult to pin down. which one.

 

51932 was killed while serving with 18th Squadron

 

There is an account of the 20th Squadron online which includes the names and addresses of all those who served.  He does not appear to be there so you can discount them.  It will however give you a flavour of the campaign.

https://archive.org/details/throughpalestine17109gut

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 18 June , 2019 by kenf48

[James R]

Thank you both for your replies.

 

Malcolm, I think that may be the same book I have read by a different name, unless Richard and Ben worked together on more than one book?

 

Ken, that gives me some good further information to look into. Would a reservist have been called up and over in France that quickly? 

[pjwmacro]

On 17/06/2019 at 20:22, James R said:

Unfortunately we do not have the medals in the family but I live in hope they may turn up one day for sale.

There are a number of "Medals Reunited" groups on facebook in which it is worth looking/making a post. And a bit of a statement of the bleeding obvious, but worth having a permanent search, with alerts, on a well known auction site for keywords "Edward Hall, service number, 4th Dragoon Gds, MGC(C)"

 

Good luck. Paul

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, James R said:

Would a reservist have been called up and over in France that quickly? 

 

He would have been mobilised on the 5th August 1914 from the Reserve.  It is difficult to be precise as to which class of reserve he was in (i.e. Army Reserve B or Army Reserve D).

see LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists/

 

However looking at the 14 Star Medal Roll which, incidentally confirms his date of transfer to the MGC (Cavalry), and comparing that to surviving records we can find examples of reservists going overseas on the 14th August e.g. 5202 Facey enlisted in the Class D Army Reserve at the end of his engagement in February 1914 and was mobilised 5 August.  The medal roll (lists him as 6202) shows entered theatre 14 August  but his service record shows 16th August.  They embarked on the  Winifredian on the 15 August so the service record appears correct, either way his , rather chequered, career shows it's entirely possible.  That said not all who were mobilised on the 5th August went with the main body but followed as reinforcements the following month.  Relying on one record should be treated with caution but further cross referencing will no doubt offer other examples.

 

Ken

[Malcolm Linham]

James 

 

 Here is another source of information that you might wish to consider. 

www.machine-gun-corps-database.co.uk/  in relation to the MGC. I appreciate that there is a small charge .

 

Malcolm 

[MaureenE]

There is a FIBIS Fibiwki page Machine Gun Corps, which although focused on the Machine Gun Corps in India, contains general information. 

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Machine_Gun_Corps

 

There is also a FIBIS Fibiwiki page Egypt, Palestine, Syria (First World War), with links to online books

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Egypt,_Palestine,_Syria_(First_World_War)

 

Cheers

Maureen

[James R]

Thank you all, hopefully I can start to get some more information from these sources