David Alec Glen, No. 8 Squadron RFC 1915

[Eskdale10]

Hello all,

I am researching (David) Alec Glen, a minister's son from Norwich and one of the Peppermint Boys from Brackondale School in the town, who flew with this squadron and was killed in action on the 29th of December 1915. I know he is mentioned in the first volume of the memoirs of W. Sholto-Douglas, later Lord Kirtleside, as being one of his best friends in the squadron at the time, and that there is a well-known photograph available of the wreckage of his aircraft and detailed description of the action in which he was killed, but does anyone know of a photograph of the officers of this squadron with Alec on it? Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

John

[PRC]

John,

 

I take it you are aware of the picture of him in the Norfolk County Picture Archive.

https://norfolk.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/FULL/PICNOR/BIBENQ/5255524/2214816,1?FMT=IMG&IMGNUM=1

 

He was flying with 8 Squadron at the time.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2943496/glen,-alec/

(There is a concentration report attached to this webpage although it's not clear where he was originally buried).

 

A small obituary appeared in the edition of Flight Magazine dated 30th March 1916. That has him commissioned in the Kings Own Scottish Borders whereas the Comonwealth War Graves Commission website has him down as RFC and Manchester Regiment. It states he was at the front five months.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1916/1916 - 0270.html?search=Glen

 

Probably worth checking out the squadron war diary for the period to see if it lists other officers serving with the squadron at the time as it might be easier to search for named individuals to see if Alec is in the picture with them.

 

Just had a look at preview of the Service Records available at the National Archive but it doesn't add much - not even a date for when he joined 8th Squadron. It does confirm he didn't serve overseas with any other unit.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8264475

His Medal Index Card shows he landed in France on the 26th July 1915.

 

Apologies if none of this is news to you.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited 16 June , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[pierssc]

Doesn't answer your question, and you may know this already, but his Casualty Form is at https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/8462

[topgun1918]

Following the trail on http://www.airhistory.org.uk, Glen was assigned to No 8 Squadron on 24 July 1915, proceed overseas the following day and arrived in France on 26 July.  The London Gazette of 1 January 1916 carried the announcement of his Mention in Despatches and shows him as "Glen, Second Lieutenant D. A., Manchester Regiment".

 

Graeme

 

[PRC]

As Geoff's search engine still seems to be out of order I tried a search on CWGC and came up with the following officers who died during the same period that Alec was serving with 8th Squadron.

 

2/Llt Jonathan Noel Washington, RFC and Manchester Regiment. Died 02/10/1915. Originally buried at Bapaume Communal Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/295836/washington,-jonathan-noel/

(Jonathan is remembered on the War Memorial at Framlingham College in Suffolk. I know the archivist there has been actively looking into the names on the memorial so may be worth contacting them).

 

2/Lt George Llewellyn Pitt, RFC and York & Lancs Regiment. Died 28/12/1915. Originally buried Douill Communal Cemetery. The concentration report shows that buried in the same grave, (the description says upper and lower coffin), is another RFC officer who died the same day, 2/Lt Mark Head.

(George Pitt): https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2684105/pitt,-george-llewellyn/

Mark Head has no unit other than R.F.C. shown on CWGC: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2684108/head,-mark/

Both were posted missing on the same official casualty report in Flight Magazine.

The International Committee of the Red Cross has a card for him showing him as 8th Squadron: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5729099/3/2/

 

Finally there is also a Sergeant Benjamin Frederick Barnard of 8th Squadron - I don't know if he was air crew or not.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/11500/louvencourt-military-cemetery/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[topgun1918]

2nd Lieut Jonathan Noel Washington and 2nd Lieut Maurice Wyvil Greenhow had been shot down and taken prisoner on 25 September 1915 in BE2c 4301; Washington, wounded in the engagement, succumbed to his wounds on 2 October.

 

Not restricted to fatalities, other casualties suffered by No 8 Squadron from the time of Glen's arrival to the date of his death include:

 

2nd Lieut Daubiney Drue Drury and 2nd Lieut Walter Alexander MacLean, shot down and taken prisoner on 22 August 1915 in BE2c 2006

2nd Lieut Edward Rodolph Clement Scholefield and Capt Frederick John Cowan Wilson, shot down and taken prisoner on 1 September 1915 on BE2c 1704

2nd Lieut Walter Henry Nixon and Capt John Nowell Stanhope Stott, shot down 19 September 1915 in BE2c 2008; Nixon was killed and Stott taken prisoner

2nd Lieut Arthur Inglis Burnie and 2nd Lieut Bertram Osborne Wilkin, shot down and taken prisoner on 11 October 1915 in BE2c 2047

2nd Lieut Valentine Mason Grantham and Lieut William A Harvey, shot down and taken prisoner on 11 November 1915 in BE2c 1711; Harvey died four days before the Armistice

2nd Lieut George Llewellyn Pitt and 2nd Lieut Mark Head, both shot down and killed on 28 December 1915 in BE2c 2670

2nd Lieut David Alexander Glen and No 2104 Sergt E Jones, shot down on 29 December 1915 in BE2c 2039, Jones becoming a prisoner.

 

I don't think Barnard was aircrew; while I have him listed as killed in action, I have no details of an aeroplane type and serial.

 

Graeme

 

 

 

 

[PRC]

And how it was reported in the local Press:-

 

Eastern Daily Press, Monday 3rd January 1916.

 

2nd LIEUT. D.A. GLEN REPORTED MISSING.

 

We greatly regret to learn that information has been received in Norwich that Second-Lieutenant D.A. Glen, Manchester Regiment, Royal Flying Corps, is reported missing. It was only in Saturday’s papers that Lieutenant Glen was mentioned in despatches “for gallant and distinguished service in the field.” He is the son of the Rev. J.P. Glen, the well-known Presbyterian minister at Norwich. A month or two ago he was home on leave.

 

The same report appeared with a slight few word changes in the edition of the Norfolk Chronicle dated Friday 7th January 1916. I'm not aware of the Chronicle and the EDP being part of the same stable of newspapers, and as the Chronicle was a weekly published on Fridays there was no Saturday edition for his MiD to be reported. Strangely I don't have a record of it from the Saturday edition of the EDP either, but the papers were poorly scanned and some parts are illegible.

 

Eastern Daily Press, Monday 10th January 1916.

 

LIEUTENANT GLEN.

 

Authentic information has reached the parents of Lieutenant Glen regarding their son. It was conveyed to them by an officer of his squadron who is home on leave. The officer stated they were the pilots of the machines who were sent on long army reconnaissance on 29th December, Lieutenat Glen acting as escort. When thirty miles over the German lines they were attacked by six Fokker machines, the fighting machines of the Germans. They at once attacked the escort, and the officer says Lieutenant Glen must have been hit or the engine damaged, but he saw him bring down his machine under proper control, and he seemed so to lead as to effect intentionally the destruction of his machine.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Edited 17 June , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[josquin]

As Graeme indicated, 2nd Lieut. David Alexander Glen served with the Manchester Regiment prior to being attached to the R.F.C.

His Manchester Regiment service is confirmed by his Casualty Card, two Medal Index Cards, and his Royal Aero Club Certificate

granted when he had completed flight training and qualified as a pilot.  CWGC erred with the KOSB attribution.

Josquin

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, josquin said:

  CWGC erred with the KOSB attribution.

 

CWGC has him on the establishment of the Manchester Regiment attached RFC - it's the obituary in Flight  that states KOSB. As these were prepared by family or friends rather than a staffer, it may simply have been a mis-understanding by the author, or a compositor error when the type was being set-up.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[josquin]

Peter

Correction noted.  A slight complication arose from CWGC listing Lieutenant Glen as "Alec" rather than "David Alexander": or "D.A."

(the latter as per the RFC Casualty Form and the obituary published in Flight Magazine).

Josquin

Edited 17 June , 2019 by josquin

[PRC]

1 hour ago, josquin said:

Peter

Correction noted.  A slight complication arose from CWGC listing Lieutenant Glen as "Alec" rather than "David Alexander": or "D.A."

(the latter as per the RFC Casualty Form and the obituary published in Flight Magazine).

Josquin

 

Josquin - no worries - I just didn't want anyone running off with the idea that CWGC needed fixing :-)

 

Couple of curious timelines in those various sources.

 

The obituary has him commissioned in the K.O.S.B. and then going to Sandhurst. I would have thought it the other way round - he would have been commissioned after attending and satisfactorily completing an Officer Training  Course, (which would not have automatically have been at Sandhurst at that stage of the war).

 

The second newspaper report sees him bring his plane down, get out and attempt to destroy it. This comes from an officer aboard the escorted plane - that is,  one that has been bounced by six enemy fighters and is thirty miles behind enemy lines and just seen it's escort accounted for. Facing an epic running fight back to safety I suspect that level of observation was out of the question and more likely to have been kind words said to the parents to spare them and hold out the hope that their missing son was still alive. As Lieutenant Glen's fellow aircrew was "only" a sergeant I suspect there is no surviving returning prisoner report from him about the circumstances of his capture which might have touched on the fate of Lieutenant Glen.

 

Just done some more digging and looks like the other plane was BE2c 4087 crewed by Lt W.S Sholto Douglas and Lt Child. Sholto Douglas's book mentioned a Gordon Alchin from his time with 8th Squadron as well. Apparently Glens' plane was brought down by Gustav Leffers as his 2nd confirmed kill. Among the other pilots involved on the German side were aces Immelmann and Boelcke.  http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33486

I'm no expert but the damage done to the plane looks more impact than an attempt to burn it out to prevent it falling into enemy hands.

https://norfolkinworldwar1.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/glens-plane-be2c-2039-crashed.jpg

 

Cheers,

Peter

[pierssc]

Since Jones was taken PoW presumably it is poor Glen who is under the blanket on the left of the photo.

[topgun1918]

On the 'other Forum', I posted a series of threads - essentially a daily log of the British flying services' activities; the (slightly updated) post covering 29 December 1915 read:

 

WEDNESDAY, 29 DECEMBER 1915

 

General Headquarters, Dec. 30th.

 

“Yesterday sixteen of our aeroplanes bombed Comines Station.  The station, railway lines and sheds in the vicinity were hit.  Ten of our aeroplanes attacked Hervilly Aerodrome and did considerable damage.  In both the above cases all machines returned safely. 

 

“During the day there were twelve encounters with hostile aeroplanes.  One of our machines engaged four of the enemy, one of which is believed to have been brought down and another damaged, all four being driven off.  One of our aeroplanes was brought down as a result of a combat with two hostile machines.”

 

Hostile Aircraft:

 

Capt Jack Armand Cunningham, 18 Sqn, Bristol C 1606, Aviatik C driven down Provin at 13:10/14:10

 

Casualties:

 

2nd-Lieut David Alexander Glen (Kia) & 2104 Sergt E Jones (Pow), 8 Sqn, BE2c 2039 – took off 09:25/10:25 then nose-dived then flattened out and landed but wrecked west of Cambrai after encounter with 2 Fokkers on escort to distant reconnaissance, south-west of Arras; Ltn Gustav Leffers, Kek B, 2nd victory [Marquion at 11:00/12:00]

 

Accidents, etc:

 

Maj George Frederick Pretyman (Ok) & 2nd-Lieut Digby Crunden Cleaver (Killed), 1 Sqn, Morane LA 5105 - wrecked going to Omer to collect new machine

 

Graeme

 

 

[Eskdale10]

Hello everyone,

Thank you so much for all your efforts to reply so fully to what was my first post on the forum. A great deal of what you say was unknown to me; you all wear your extensive learning lightly and are so generous in the sharing of it. I am interested in Alec Glen because for a short time he was a pupil at Langholm Academy in Dumfries and Galloway when his father was assistant to the Rev. Ballantyne in the town, and so he has become part of the Remembering my Soldier project we began at the school in 2017. The information you give here will inform the materials we will use with today's pupils and make sure that Alec is always remembered. Thank you again.

 

John

[PRC]

One of the two ICRC cards for Sergeant Edward Jones can be seen here - https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3739272/3/2/

The other one really doesn't add anything. Even this file  is a tad confusing - giving his rank as Sergeant \ Unterleutnant and Second Lieutenant at various points, so at first I wondered if they were two separate individuals, but there seems to be a consistent theme of born or connected to Croydon and captured at Cambrai - I wonder if he took Glen's jacket and passed himself off as an officer to get a better prison camp!

 

As the learned gentlemen who have commented haven't mentioned a book on either the squadron or an ace who served with 8th Squadron during the last 6 months of 1915, (beyond Sholto Dougals), I suspect there isn't one and so no pictures from that source. Any formal picture in the Imperial War Museum, should they exist, are likely to be a staged ones for propaganda purposes following some significant deed. It's not my area of interest but I don't think I've seen any formal shots of all of a squadron officers - but I'm sure someone will shoot me down in flames on that !

 

So I would suggest your best bet is going to be the private collections of the officers concerned, which may well mean contacting descendants.

 

Good luck with your search,

 

Peter

[Eskdale10]

Thank you for your interest Peter, we certainly have a good deal more solid information on Alec now and perhaps a group squadron photo will turn up at some point.

 

John

[Guest]

Hello,

 

I am Marc Symons and Belgian. For a long time now i was looking for Second Lieutenant Mark Head RFC pilot, my grand mothers brother.

I finally found him in Ham (Muille-Vilette) British Cemetary last month burried next to his observer Second Lieutenant G.L. Pitt.

I was also interestet in what squadron he was, which is the 8th as i found out on this forum.

D'ont know if this can help, but i have anScan0014.pdf old news-paper comment with photo of Mark, as well has a picture he made a few days before he died.

On the picture there is an aircraft with a number on the  upper-tail section. I always wonder if this was his plane. I believe it is a B.E. 2c

Scan0015.pdf

[MikeMeech]

42 minutes ago, Marc Symons said:

Hello,

 

I am Marc Symons and Belgian. For a long time now i was looking for Second Lieutenant Mark Head RFC pilot, my grand mothers brother.

I finally found him in Ham (Muille-Vilette) British Cemetary last month burried next to his observer Second Lieutenant G.L. Pitt.

I was also interestet in what squadron he was, which is the 8th as i found out on this forum.

D'ont know if this can help, but i have anScan0014.pdf old news-paper comment with photo of Mark, as well has a picture he made a few days before he died.

On the picture there is an aircraft with a number on the  upper-tail section. I always wonder if this was his plane. I believe it is a B.E. 2c

Scan0015.pdf 595.19 kB · 2 downloads

Hi

 

Trevor Henshaw in 'The Sky their Battlefield II' on page 27 has Pitt and Head lost on BE2c 2670, possibly in combat with Oblt E Althaus of FAb23 KEK. Vaux.  It was reported as an 'Aviatik' and was over SANCOURT.

 

Mike

[topgun1918]

I believe that George Llewellyn Pitt was the pilot - he received Royal Aero Club certificate number 871 on 19 August 1914 and was a temporary Second Lieut in the York and Lancaster Regiment before being appointed a Flying Officer on 2 September 1915 and transferred to the General List.

 

Lance-Corpl. Mark Head was seconded for service with the Royal Flying Corps, from the Essex Yeomanry, on 10 November 1915.

 

Graeme

 

 

 

[Guest]

Thank you very much for giving the correct information. Until now I had poor info in my possession.