Inprisonment with hard labour

[rendellers]

In many places is I suspect the answer but an AIF soldier I am researching was sentenced to 6 months inprisonment with hard labour. The Court Martial was held in Wareham. Leaping about from the murder thread currently running I ended up on the SAD site. I had not realised until then that the AIF would not sanction execution except for murder and that at one time 11 of their men were serving out hard labour sentences for desertion in Dartmoor prison which is not too far away from me. Can any one point me to some more references to help my research?

Many Thanks

Lindsey

[Terry_Reeves]

Lindsey

Hard labour in the British penal system at this time principally consisted of sewing mail bags, oakum picking, that is teasing out the fibres of old rope for such things as caulking, and stone breaking, which was quite appropriate for the Dartmoor area. As well as being of some use, the tasks were intended to be tedious, and are far as the first two were concerned, were often carried out in complete silence.

TR

[centurion]

Almost all of the major prisons had convicts doing hard labour (this included Princetown (Dartmoor) as well as Exeter, Durham, Wandsworth and even Mountjoy in Dublin). However a special camp was set up near Dyce in North Scotland for disallowed COs and deserters where they worked in a granite quarry.

[truthergw]

I believe that at one time, a prisoner sentenced to hard labour was imprisoned in a penitentiary. Not many miles from Dyce was Peterhead Penitentiary where prisoners worked in the local quarry so local expertise was on tap. I believe that Dartmoor and Peterhead were the only prisons where prisoners were under armed guard. The ones at Peterhead were transported to and from the quarry shackled in trucks on a narrow gauge railway. The guards carrying rifles.

[centurion]

From accounts the camp at Dyce was actually in the quarry and was under military administration. Would a prisoner convicted in a courts martial be sent to a civilian jail? Did a courts martial have the legal authority to do so or would the punishment have to be under military control?

[Ron Clifton]

Hello centurion

According to the Manual of Military Law, it was usual for men sentenced to penal servitude (i.e. 3 years or more) also to be discharged from the Army, and they would spend their sentences in a civil prison. Those with shorter sentences who were not to be discharged would normally serve time in a detention barracks or military prison, but if also discharged from the Army they might be transferred to a civil prison.

Since the court-martial system was established under English statute law, there was no problem with soldiers in the UK being remitted to serve their sentence in a civil prison. It would presumably have been a matter for arrangement between the War Office and the Home Office Prisons Department. There are various specimen forms of committal in the Manual.

Ron

[rendellers]

Now I am confused.

Here are details about the AIF

Another incident could not be disguised as ‘industrial action’. On 21 September, 119 men of the 1st Battalion stood fast when they were ordered back into the line shortly after their relief, protesting that they were being called upon to make good British failures as well as having to fight on their own front. ‘Fatigue mutiny’ or not, these men had committed an offence unequivocally punishable by death under Section 98 for the first time in the war. Aware of the outcry at home that its enforcement would provoke, Monash again took the broader view. All but one of the 119 were convicted of desertion rather than mutiny and sentenced to up to ten years imprisonment on Dartmoor

These seem to contradict with here

When the Great War broke out, most of the British soldiers were volunteers. After two years the numbers of new soldiers dwindled and conscription began. Those who refused conscription for religious or moral reasons were rated as conscientious objectors and could not be pressed into service. However, they were able to serve in non-combat roles and many did; those who refused even this were sentenced to hard labour for the remainder of the war. Many of those (1,100 in total) were sent to Dartmoor Prison from 1917, the criminal population having been moved out and the prison renamed Princetown Work Centre. The 'Conchies' were branded cowards, treated appallingly and made to do hard labour. They were moved out at the end of the war and the criminal population returned.

and the treatment they recieved is contradicted here

Regards

Lindsey

[centurion]

Ron

So given that Lindsey's man got six months this might suggest that he served it in a military establishment.

[centurion]

Now I am confused.

Here are details about the AIF

Another incident could not be disguised as ‘industrial action’. On 21 September, 119 men of the 1st Battalion stood fast when they were ordered back into the line shortly after their relief, protesting that they were being called upon to make good British failures as well as having to fight on their own front. ‘Fatigue mutiny’ or not, these men had committed an offence unequivocally punishable by death under Section 98 for the first time in the war. Aware of the outcry at home that its enforcement would provoke, Monash again took the broader view. All but one of the 119 were convicted of desertion rather than mutiny and sentenced to up to ten years imprisonment on Dartmoor

These seem to contradict with here

When the Great War broke out, most of the British soldiers were volunteers. After two years the numbers of new soldiers dwindled and conscription began. Those who refused conscription for religious or moral reasons were rated as conscientious objectors and could not be pressed into service. However, they were able to serve in non-combat roles and many did; those who refused even this were sentenced to hard labour for the remainder of the war. Many of those (1,100 in total) were sent to Dartmoor Prison from 1917, the criminal population having been moved out and the prison renamed Princetown Work Centre. The 'Conchies' were branded cowards, treated appallingly and made to do hard labour. They were moved out at the end of the war and the criminal population returned.

I am even more confused - how does this relate to your original query? BTW the last bit is not correct as it implies that the majority of COs ended up in Dartmoor - this is far from correct - they went everywhere - including Dyce. I have a record of one CO who spent time in Wandsworth, Dyce and Durham

[rendellers]

I think you are correct Centurion. Original sentence was passed 26 May 1917. The unexpired portion of his sentence (71 day)s was remitted 15 Sept 1917. He was sent back to the front rejoining unit 6 Oct 1917 and was killed 15 Oct 1917.

The problem for me now is that I have allowed myself in true magpie fashion to be sidetracked by Dartmoor prison. About a decade ago I spent a term teaching literally in the shadows of said building- a very stark place indeed,

Lindsey

[rendellers]

Sorry Centurion I didn't realise you had posted again. No the web links I posted arose from a Google search ( and I know I musn't believe everything from the www. Indeed in those links it is pertinent to look at the organisations authoring the pages. However I did come across this article about a book regarding Dyce here

[Terry_Reeves]

I see no evidence that this man was a CO, so any talk of that is misleading. In the UK ,soldiers could serve a sentence in a Military Detention Barracks, such as Aldershot or Shepton Mallet amongst others. Wings of civilian prisons were also given over to military prisoners during the war.

TR

[rendellers]

Sorry it is me that is causing the confusion. No my man wasn't a CO. However 'hard labour' led to 'Dartmoor' and that led to 'COs'. However I am still very interested to find out more about the AIF men but I think I should start a new thread about that.

Thanks everyone for the help- as usual I just want to learn even more

Lindsey

[Terry_Reeves]

Lindsey

This thread might help throw some light on the complexity of the situation:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55845

TR

[stevenbecker]

Mate

These are a few of the many I have on record

MacKANESS Herbert John 496 Pte 01 LHR C Sqn remain Egypt to 4 Div Cyc Co 3-16 to AATD UK 5-16 FGCM AWoL sentenced 5 months HL to Wormwood Scrubs Prison 10-16 to Gnr 1 sect/1 DAC 1-18 F&B married Ethel Timms in Northampton UK 9-3-17 relist RAN (14338) to HMAS Cerberus disch SNLR

MARR Albert 1612 Pte 04 LHR 12R to DSqn/2 Anzac LHR to 14Bn (1612a) FGCM 15-1-18 desertion sentenced 2 years HL 3 Military prison La Harve F&B escaped recaptured to Hurdscott prison UK

McKINNON Roderick 442 Dvr 10Bn GCo to DCo remain Egypt to 50Bn FGCM deserted 2 years prison HL to HMP Wandsworth UK rtn 10Bn F&B (CSqn CMF)

MILLER Cecil Harold 2205 Pte 6 LHR 15R to 17Co/4Bn ICC WIA 30-3-18 neck to 12 LHR FGCM 13-1-19 sentenced 1 year HL to Gabbarri Prison 19-2-19 suspended 10-8-19

MORRIS Walter Charles 1077 Dvr 2 LH Bde Trn 6Co AASC disemb Albany disch 30-12-14 as poor soldier relist 9R/54Bn (3526) to 62Bn UK (3526a) rtn 54Bn WIA 30-3-18 sprained ankle accident F&B trial in civil court 29-11-18 sentenced 3 months HL to Pentonville Prison for stealing

MUNRO Samuel Haggerty 551 Pte 2 LHFA (G) to Sgt 2 AAuxH UK deserted 8-3-18 went to Canada relist in Cleveland Ohio USA in Canadian Army as Robert Robson (3060834) to 6 Res Bn Eastern Onterio Regt in UK FGCM sentenced 2 Years HL

NIXON Arthur 190 Pte 7 LHR A Sqn (G) to Dvr 55Bty/14 FAB deserted 8-10-17 FGCM sentenced 12 months HL to No 7 Military Prison Calais & No 3 Military Prison Havre F&B

PAGE Harry 318 Pte 9 LHR B Sqn to Dvr 2 FCE (252) 3-15 FGCM 8-15 bad conduct sentenced 18 months HL to Gabbari prison Egypt (G) remitted rtn 4-16 F&B related William 9 LHR

PARSLOW Louis John 1108 Pte 01 LHR 7R to B Sqn B Troop 11-15 (G) att WFF FGCM 28-3-17 disobeying an officer sentenced 9 months HL suspended 6-17

PENO Charles 2416 Pte 05 LHR 16R to 2 LH MGS 9-16 to Dvr 5-18 FGCM 3-7-18 "refused orders" "sentenced 4 months HL to Prison Citadel Cairo" rtn 10-18 FGCM striking an officer 5-5-19 sentenced 14 months HL RTA as prisoner disch 6-9-19 SNLR forfit medals AKA Charles Leslie Peno

PICKETT Walter Gordon 3065 Pte 04 LHR 23R 4 LHR Dtls in UK 3-17 to Gnr Arty Dtls UK FGCM 18-10-17 stealing sentenced 9 months HL to Lewes prison

PRICE Benjamin Henry Eyles 788 Pte 05 LHR 3R to C Sqn 7-15 (G) att 2 LH FTE 5-18 rtn 8-18 FGCM AWol 30-9-18 to 2-10-18 senteced 4 months HL Citadel prison Cairo (British Oxford Uni Mounted Infantry and BSA Police in Rhodesia 3 years)

PRITCHARD Leonard William 1193 Pte 03 LHR 8R to A Sqn 11-15 (G) att WFF FGCM 14-10-17 "disobeying a lawfull command" sentenced 6 months HL at Dentention Barracks

SANDFORD William Henry 2219 Pte 03 LHR 15R to Dvr 5 DAC 9-16 to 12 BAC 1-17 FGCM 14-4-17 stealing sentenced 6 months HL to No 4 Military Prison Abancourt F&B disch 1-11-18 MU rheum

WALLACE John 1190 Pte 13 LHR 6R to 9 LHR 3-16 to 1 Anzac LHR 3-17 to 14Bn 10-17 FGCM 1-8-18 AWL 31-5-18 to 17-7-18 sentenced 2 years HL to No 7 Military Prison FGCM 24-3-19 Mutiny at Calais 11-3-19 sentenced 11 years PS reduced to 2 years HL at HM Prisons Portland & Bristol F&B disch SNLR

WARBY William 477 Pte 6 LHR C Sqn WIA 1-8-15 arm at Ryries Post (G) deserted to France att AGBD sentenced 5 years HL striking an officer to Winchester prison F&B disch SNLR brothers Henry 6 LHR and Charles 45Bn

WARNER William George 814 Pte 9 LHR 2R Tos 5-15 (G) AWoL to 16Bn (814a) 5-16 reported MIA 11-4-17 at Bullecourt deserted FGCM sentenced PS life to 4 Military Prison reduced to 2 years HL rtn 5-18 FGCM AWol 17-10-18 sentenced 2 years HL to Pentonville prison UK 6-19 F&B SNLR forfit medals AKA real name William James Vivian Harris

WATT Herbert 2226 Pte 04 LHR 15R to 4 Div Cyc Co 4-16 to 1 Anzac Cyc Bn 7-16 FGCM assult sentenced 1 year HL to No 4 Military prison F&B to depots UK FGCM theif with violence sentenced 18 months HL to Wandsworth prison disch SNLR

WILTON Frank N/R Pte 7 LHR C Sqn C Troop (not identified) relist 18R/2Bn (5785) tos 10-16 WIA 4-5-17 R/wrist at Bullecourt FGCM 10-10-17 deserted 30-9-17 to 6-10-17 sentence 30 day FP 2 deserted 9-1-18 sentenced 5 years PS reduced to 2 years HL to No 2 Military prison 10-3-18 rtn 6-18 deserted 2-8-18 captured by 33rd US Div 9-18 to No 5 Miliary Prison F&B to Tidworth prison UK

WYETT Percy Seabert 532 Pte 03 LHR B Sqn disch 11-3-15 disciplinary SNLR relist 2R/5 Pnr Bn (1958) Tos 8-16 to L/Cpl 4-17 to T/Cpl 5-17 FGCM 25-8-17 sentenced 2 years HL to No 7 Miliary prison 9-17 suspended 18-8-18 F&B disch SNLR forfit medals brothers Victor 43Bn KIA, Reg 9 LHR and Sidney 3 LHR

YEOMANS Frederick Patrick 347 Dvr 01 LHR B Sqn (NP) (G) to AIF depots UK 4-16 rtn 01 LHR 9-17 FGCM 9-17 sentenced 1 years HL at Citadal prison for striking a MP rtn 9-18

Cheers

S.B

[Ron Clifton]

Ron

So given that Lindsey's man got six months this might suggest that he served it in a military establishment.

Centurion

Based on Steve Becker's post I would say that a civil prison was more likely in this case. Pre-war I think there was only one military prison in the UK, at Woking. Other centres had detention barracks but the Army drew a distinction between detention and imprisonment. It is possible that particular wings of Wormwood Scrubs and the like were set aside for military prisoners, to permit a slightly different regime to be operated. But I'm only guessing!

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

Looking through Steve's list, it appears he could have served his sentence with hard labour in either type of establishment. In the original post he was sentenced at Wareham, which would make Dorchester Prison or Shepton Mallet the most likely candidates.

TR

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Terry

I believe that Shepton Mallet is now in use (or was in fairly recent years) as "the" prison for members of the US Armed Forces stationed in the UK?

Ron

[truthergw]

The Dirty Dozen has the opening sequence of a US Army execution taking place by hanging in Shepton Mallet prison.

[truthergw]

From accounts the camp at Dyce was actually in the quarry and was under military administration. Would a prisoner convicted in a courts martial be sent to a civilian jail? Did a courts martial have the legal authority to do so or would the punishment have to be under military control?

Nowadays, Dyce is a BAA airport and large heliport but at the time of the Great War it would have been a very small place on the outskirts of Aberdeen and the only reason I can think of for establishing a prison camp there would be the railway station and the presence of granite quarries. I assume the road metal produced would have gone to France. George ( Dycer) would be the one to perhaps shed light on this. He may have prior knowledge of the camp.

[Magnumbellum]

There seems to be much confusion on this thread. It may be helpful to elucidate a number of distinct points:

1. Courts-martial in any of the UK armed forces rank in status equivalent to civilian criminal courts, and, under relevant Acts of Parliament and King's/Queen's Regulations, have power to order sentences of both imprisonment and detention. Length of sentence was and is not the defining point; it is question of which sentence is handed down by the court-martial.

2. A sentence of detention was and is served in an armed forces establishment and under armed forces control. Historically, and especially at the time of the Great War, there were a number of army detention barracks, including some in France and elsewhere overseas. Now detainees from all the UK armed forces are held at the Military Corrective Training Centre at Colchester, run by the army.

3. A sentence of imprisonment was and is served in a civil prison. It is not for a court-martial to decide on a particular prison, any more than a civilian criminal court chooses a particular prison. Military prisoners are allocated by the prison authorities in the same way as civilian prisoners.

4. Imprisonment with hard labour, as a form of imprisonment, was also served in civilian prisons. It has long been abolished, being a relic of 19th century penal attitudes. By the time of the Great War the only difference between "imprisonment" and "imprisonment with hard labour" was deprivation of a mattress for the first fourteen nights of imprisonment.

5. As a matter of record, virtually all British prisons, and some in Ireland, housed military prisoners at some point in the Great War.

6. Any report of a prisoner in Dartmoor requiress careful investigation. The prison was orginally built in the early 19th century, for French prisoners from the Napoleonic Wars, and then converted to a convict prison. By the time of the Great War it was being regarded as having outlived its usefulness and was closed - I am not certain of the actual date.

7. The Dyce Work Camp and Princetown Work Centre (in the erstwhile Dartmoor Prison) were established under the Home Office Scheme, whereby certain conscientious objectors could be released from prison on condition of performing useful work under civilian control. Dyce Camp was opened in late August 1916, and, after a scandal over the death of one of the inmates, Walter Roberts, was closed in October 1916. Princetown Work Centre opened in March 1917 and closed in April 1919. There were a number of other Work Centres, including the converted Wakefield, Warwick and Knutsford Prisons.

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Magnumbellum

The only point I would add is that, at the time of the Great War, and up to at least 1960 or so, there was a further distinction between "Imprisonment", with oer without hard labour, which was for periods of up to two years, and "penal servitude" which was for three years or more. Penal servitude involved the loss of certain civic rights.

It is interesting to speculate whether the distinction may be re-introduced in some form following the recent European Court of Human Rights decision on convicts' right to vote! But that, unfortunately, would be off-topic.

Ron

[Magnumbellum]

I acknowledge that in attempting to cover all the various points raised in this thread, I overlooked penal servitude. This was another Victorian relic, introduced in 1853 to supersede transportation. The range of length of sentence was orginally five years to life, but by 1914 the minumum had been reduced to three years. The concept of servitude was very heavy work, in distinction from simply losing one's liberty, which was the original concept of imprisonment. There was no loss of civic rights any more than with imprisonment. Penal Servitude was abolished by the Criminal Justice Act 1948.

A number of conscientious objectors were sentenced to penal servitude, including the 35 formally sentenced to death in 1916, but immediately reprieved with the substitution of 10 years PS; in the event, they were all released in 1919.

[madpinkflamingo]

Hi

I have an ancestor Gilbert Smith McKay who wore the Black Watch tartan, but the family state that the majority of his War service was spent in a military prison nr Perth. He was born 1901, and originally thrown out for trying to enlist in 1916 for lying about his age, but alledgedly joined the Black Watch around 1918/19.

He said he was about to go to Russia to assist Kolchuk, but ended up in the military prison.

Two questions:

1) Ive looked at the lists of who sent soldiers to assist Kolchuk but the Black Watch arent listed ? (sorry, Im sure this should be on another thread)

2) Where would I find out more about his time in a military prison nr Perth ?

Ancestry.co.uk hasnt a record of his service or pension, and Ive no idea of his service number.

(I do find it hard to believe an ordinary lad from the tenments of Paisley would know anything about Kolchuk at that time)

Many many thanks

Pinky

[Guest]

The British Library has let me down and I'm hoping you can help.

 

In WWI, when a British Army officer was sentenced to three years hard labour following a field general court martial on the Western Front, to which British prison would he be sent? Bonus Question: what form of labor would the hard labor take?

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.