Lt WILLIAM F CARRUTHERS WHO IS HE?

[bobpike]

.On the school memorial for  Newport Free Grrammar School Essex is listed a CARRUTHERS Lt.William F Royal Fusiliers 14.9.16. I can find no trace of him, am I missing something

Thank you

Bob

[Coldstreamer]

Where have you looked to save duplication of efforts ?

[MaxD]

Could this be Lt William Frederick Carruthers of the London Regiment, perhaps one of the fusilier battalions which folk often put down as Royal Fusiliers.  No casualty record though.  Although 7th Battalion in a LG entry of 1921.  Only WF Carruthers with a NA officer's file.

 

Max

[IPT]

There was a William Frederick Carruthers (1860-1936), who seems very unlikely, but did live about 7 miles from the site of the former Newport Free Grammar School.

 

EDIT - He had a son, William F Carruthers born c1891 in Australia, living at home on the 1901, but not the 1911.  That must be the man in question.

Edited 6 June , 2019 by IPT

[bobpike]

Thank you, I attach a MIC -  does his cloud or clarify your comments?

[MaxD]

This is William Whitfield Carruthers who joined the RAF after 1/23 London Regiment.  His RAF record shows his mother's address as Notting Hill and that he had been a rubber planter in Malaya 1912-1916 - another man entirely I'd say.

 

Max

[Guest]

Bob-   the answer may be nearer your doorstep than mine. Newport Free Grammar School  has a strong old boys association, which may help.  The school published its own magazine, The Newportonian, which the school should hold-  SEAX from Essex Record Office may have a run but the system is  not working at the moment.

   The likeliest place for an answer appears to be:

 

Sons of Joyce Frankland : some record of the boys of Newport Grammar School, Essex. Vol. 1 : 1588-1945

Author:	F Thompson; Old Newportonian Society.
Publisher:	[Saffron Walden] ([c/o F. Thompson, 14 Farmadine, Saffron Walden, Essex CB11 3HP]) : Old Newportonian Society, 1979.
Edition/Format:	Print book : EnglishView all editions and formats
Rating:	(not yet rated) 0 with reviews - Be the first.
Subjects	Newport Free Grammar School -- Biography. Newport Free Grammar School. Essex -- Newport -- Boys' grammar schools -- Newport Grammar School -- Ex-students -- Biographies
More like this	Similar Items      A copy appears to be held  by Essex County Libraries in  Chelmsford-   I suspect there will be one at the Essex Record Office as well

[rflory]

From Sons of Joyce Frankland : some record of the boys of Newport Grammar School, Essex. Vol. 1 : 1588-1945:

1904 Summer

CARRUTHERS, W F, Member of the Cricket and Soccer XIs, Lieut. Royal Fusiliers in WWI. Killed 14 Sept. 1916.

 

There are images of him in group photos of the members of the Soccer XI 1904 and Cricket XI in 1905.

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 June , 2019 by rflory

[charlie962]

2nd Lt W F Carruthers of the London Regiment was reported wounded in the Casualty List dated 28/9/16. 

 

Could be a mistake by the school ?

 

I agree with Max/IPT on identification.

 

Charlie

 

Incidentally same man, I think,  Lieut W F Carruthers, London Regt, Wounded, Casualty List 7/5/18.

Edited 8 June , 2019 by charlie962

[bobpike]

Thank you all, would you agree that it all adds up to an error  on the school's part? If not where can I go from here?
Thank you again

Bob

[Guest]

Bob-  start looking for the man alive after his school death date.  School mags. often have mistakes as their chief source of information seems to have been the man's family and other Old Boys -thus much of it is grapevine.  The school mags I have looked at down this end of Essex (eg Forest School) show that picking up on casualties was a hit-and-miss business.

    I could not find a  record of him being POW from ICRC as well as the stuff above. Mistakes did happen-witness the  other side of the coin-all the tragic tales of wives and mothers, etc still hoping against hope that a missing man was still alive (usually with loss of memory) and that there had been a clerical mix-up somewhere

[MaxD]

Bob

 

The basic difficulty is that you would have to persuade the school (and others?) that because there is no evidence of a war death of a man with that name, their info must be wrong.  Our ID of the London Regt man can only be said to strongly suggest the mistake, only the service record would prove/disprove it..  I would agree with GUEST that the way to go is to attempt to find evidence of his post war existence.

 

Even there we have to make assumptions about who he was pre-war.  The man born in Australia in 1891 (IPT above) would appear to be the best bet.  His parents died in 1931 (mother) and 1936 (father).  William Frederick isn't on the 1911 census (IPT above) and not on the electoral register in the 30s.

 

His brother Roy Leslie Carruthers (same address as the parents probate records), left for Australia (Adelaide) with a wife Dorothy and daughter Eileen in the Blue Funnel vessel "Hector" in April 1957 - a plea specifically to our Australian friends may make a connection?

 

Max

[IPT]

I've got a William Frederick Carruthers, born Australia c1890, marrying Australian Winnie Southee in South Africa in September 1923.

 

 

I've got no evidence that this extremely vague death of a "Frederick William" Carruthers in Zimbabwe is him, but it's interesting;

 

 

 

[bobpike]

IPT

Interesting indeed thank you. I have an appointment with Newportr school expert on the 21st - watch this space

Bob

[Guest]

Here is the relevant stuff from his service file at Kew:

 

 

Enlisted on Territorial Force Terms for 4 years on 16^th August 1915.

5677 Inns of Court OTC  6^th August 1915-14^th November 1915, then commissioned 3/7 London Regiment

 

Born 1888

 

Severely wounded at High Wood, 15^th September 1916. Medical Boards list wounds as Severe. Not Permanent.   Had gunshot wound  to right side of chest, with damage to his lung.  Main medical boards:

Returned  to England 23^rd September 1916.

Granted leave 11^th October 1916-15^th December 1916

Reported for duty 22^nd December 1916, giving address as Woodfields, Stansted, Essex

MB  Military Hospital, Barley (?),  28^th January 1917. Unfit GS . Wounds healed, shortage of breath. Wounded at High Wood, 15^th September 1916. Penetrating wound to right side of chest with damage to lung. Fracture of 9^th right rib. Complains of shortness of breath. Wounds classed as “Severe. Not permanent”. Out for 3 months

MB at Military Hospital, Fovant Camp, Wiltshire. Unfit GS. Wounds healed. Shortage of breath

Military Hospital, Exeter  21^st April 1917 (Age 30-Served 2  8/12 years)

   GSW chest. Fit for General Service

 

28^th June 1917- 9^th July 1917- to Alexandria via Southampton and Marseilles.  Attached 1/11^th Londons.

21^st July 1917- Joins unit.

18^th August 1917- to hospital, 2/1 East Anglian Field Ambulance. Tonsilitis.

25^th August 1917- Rejoined unit.

12^th April 1918 Wounded in action, high explosive wound to head- Hit by shrapnel near Jerusalem, taking a 1 inch by 1inch chunk of his scalp. (Admitted on 11^th April)

13^th April 1918- to 26 CCS, Alexandria

4^th May 1918. Rejoined unit

11^th November –ordered to Bombay

7^th March 1919-Ordered back

26^th July 1919. Leaves Port Said for voyage to England

 

       Given that he was from Stansted and was wounded pretty much at the right date, then I think he is the man.  There is nothing in his service file about which unit he was with  at High Wood-merely that he was commissioned 3/7 London Regiment-which was a home battalion throughout the war.

      Looks like a straight case of misreporting-which is not that unusual on war memorials.

 

 

[MaxD]

He was with 7th Battalion at High Wood. The battalion war diary does not name casualties but but the 140 Brigade diary lists 2/Lt W F Carruthers (as he no doubt was then) in officer casualties in an appendix to Sep 1916 diary.

 

It is perhaps likely that the 1921 LG entry of 

 

The diary fails to tell us which school he went to but then they didn't know we'd be interested in 2019!

 

Max

[bobpike]

Thank you very much, this shows so well what a wonderful research tool the Forum can be. I will report back on what i glean from my meeting on Friday, but once again thnk you and my photo offer stands i ever you need it

Bob