8353, Pte PW Cracknell 1Suff PoW

[Nigel Cracknell]

Hi guys 

i was wondering if anyone knows where 1 Bn Suffolk Regiment where when their position was overrun February, 1915, all I know is that it was SW of Ypres near a canal. Can anyone please shed any more light on this as I would love to visit the site when I get to Ypres.

[MaxD]

The war diary:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353525

download for £3.50.  

 

His POW record shows 16 Feb 1915 as the date he was captured. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3563720/3/2/

 

Max

[PRC]

During my travels over the years on the internet I came across this - unfortunately the originating site has now been hacked and is virtually unnavigateable, so I won't post a link.

 

For example during the month of February they had been in the Verbrandenmolen sector. On the 15th February they were in temporary trenches, to the south of Ypres and west of the canal. These so-called trenches consisted of banks, which did not provide any cover and ditches mostly waist-deep in water. Part of this trench system was in enemy hands. 'C' company was ordered to hold part of this system it till morning but when they arrived, however, they learned that the main part of the trench was in the hands of the enemy. As they moved forward the front platoon of 'C' company were stopped by grenade and machine-gun fire. All attempts to get beyond this point failed and the company suffered heavy casualties during the rest of the night. By dawn all survivors had been taken prisoner. Two platoons, in support near the wood on the canal, were later ordered up to make an attack to recover the position but the attack had to be aborted due to daybreak. They spent 2 days standing in icy water. During these two weeks they lost 300 casualties.

 

I see from the ICRC card that Private Cracknell was in C Company. It doesn't sound so much as the Battalion being over-run, more like the survivors of the initial attack, but hopefully the War Diary may clarify.

 

Given the temporary nature of the trenches they were advancing into, you may get more joy from looking at the Brigade War Diary for the period rather than the Battalion one. Although the Brigade War Diaries cover a shorter period for your £3.50, they will include the relevant War Diaries for all the units that made up the Brigade, nearly always in a type-written rather than hand-written format, and usually have all the appendices and maps, which tend to go missing from the Battalion War Diaries.

 

1st Suffolks were in the 84th Brigade. The 84th Brigade War Diary for December 1914 to October 1915 can be be sourced from the National Archive here :-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353520

 

Alternatively as they were in France & Flanders, I'm told both Battalion and Brigade War Diaries can be seen on Ancestry as part of a subscription.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[MaxD]

The diary that Ancestry brings up with the NA reference WO 95/2277/3 brings up 1st Battalion the Welsh Regiment.  This has been reported at least three times but the error persists!.

 

84 Brigade also presents a problem in that it doesn't appear on Ancestry.

 

In both cases unfortunately, unless someone has found them hiding elsewhere, the originals on the NA site are the best (and only) bet!

 

The errors may be related to the temporary attachment of 84 Brigade to 5th Division (vide LLT) although that division yields no results on Ancestry either.

 

Max

 

 

[clk]

Hi Nigel,

 

On Ancestry, the 84 Brigade HQ diary for February 1915 appears to start here; and the Division HQ (General Staff) diary here.

 

Regards

Chris

[MaxD]

Taking up Chris's super sleuthing, the 84 Bde diary contains a specific account of 1 Suffolk's' actions on 15 Feb 1915  which (diary quote) "led to the greater part of C Company being missing".  

 

The action took place to re-take O trench which had been taken by the enemy.  I haven't found a specific grid reference in the diaries but referring to 3 Middlesex diary among others and with the help of the index on the McMaster maps site, it is clear that the location  was in square O3/O4 east of St Eloi, map (from 1916) and image here:

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=50.8079&lon=2.9010&layers=101464939&right=BingHyb

 

Max

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, MaxD said:

1 Suffolk's' actions on 15 Feb 1915  which (diary quote) "led to the greater part of C Company being missing".  

Might not be of help to you but I wanted to try out FMP's new indexing of the ICRC Prisoner cards/sheets. Limiting the Record set to " Prisoners Of War 1715-1945" and just putting in the date "15 feb 1915" in keyword  without any surname etc gave 127 results. At least a third of these will be duplicate in that there is the card then the backing sheet. But a great way to find a starting list of some men's names who might have been captured in the same action. I tested several names and they seem to be 1st suffolks. Cracknell is listed. Note that putting in "suffolk" would have missed a lot of records which have only a transcription "Suff".  Not perfect but a potentially useful tool.

 

Charlie

[MaxD]

Yes - as we discussed recently using both the FMP and the originals together is a good wheeze!  I would (and I suspect you too) always try to go to the originals which allows a closer look at the lists, for example tracking right back to the beginning of a list to cross check the camp and date which is often not on the immediate card.

 

Max

[clk]

Hi,

 

Digressing from the OP...

 

14 hours ago, charlie962 said:

...a great way to find a starting list of some men's names who might have been captured in the same action

 

Another way I've used to create a list is if you know a man was taken PoW/missing on a certain day find him on a casualty list under the reported missing heading. Then cross reference the other men shown from the regiment against the ICRC records. That used to be quite laborious due to the limitations of the ICRC search engine, and the quirks of how some of the cards were filed. With FMP (whilst the record set isn't complete yet) it's very straight forward. Take the service number from the casualty list and use it as the sole search criteria, then go back to the ICRC and search by PA/R numbers shown on the index card if needs be.

 

14 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Note that putting in "suffolk" would have missed a lot of records which have only a transcription "Suff"

 

A way to get around that problem is to use the partial wildcard option of "suf*"

 

Regards

Chris