Forming of the 18th ~ 25th Rifle Bde

[ddycher]

All

 

Does anyone have more detail on this ? 

 

I had always followed the line that these were formed in November 1915 at Halton. Am now learning that Composite Bn's were formed at Halton from the various Supernumerary Companies earlier than this and that screened men from these Coy's started arriving at Halton as early as August. My own interest lies in the Wessex and Welsh Foreign Service Composite Bn but I am intrigued with the concentration of the National Reservists at Halton.

 

Can anybody add anything to this ?

 

Regards

Dave

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Dave,

 

On 29th July the War Office decided to concentrate the Supernumerary Companies at Halton Park and form them into Garrison battalions, withdrawing all fit men and sending those unfit to existing Home Service Provisional battalions.

Brig.-Gen. E.W.S. Grove was appointed to command at Halton, and the ex National Reservists began to arrive. They were classified by age - Under 40; 40-45; over 45 years, those under 40 being drafted, if fit and willing, to units finding drafts for overseas, and of the remainder, all who were willing to take the Imperial Service obligation were ordered to be formed into "T. F. Provisional Battalions, for service at home and abroad if required." They were to be called "Foreign Service T. F. Provisional Battalions."

Seven battalions in all were formed, from every Territorial Infantry Regiments in the kingdom. The Guards, K.R.R.C. and The Rifle Brigade were the only ones not represented, since they had no territorial areas, no National Reservists had been affiliated to them.

In these circumstances it was a difficult problem for the War Office to decide what regiments should adopt these battalions. It was administratively desirable that they should have a common Record Office and Paymaster; correspondence between the various branches of the War Office waxed furious until the Director of Personal Services of the day suggested the solution that either the K.R.R.C. or The Rifle Brigade should adopt them all. Eventually they were allotted to The Rifle Brigade, and the City of London Territorial Association agreed to assume responsibility for their administration.

They were given a separate Pay and Record Office. They were authorised in December 1915 to wear The Rifle Brigade Badge with a shoulder title "R.B." surmounted by a "T"

The personnel assembled was then invited to transfer to The Rifle Brigade. They were formed into seven battalions:

18th London

19th Western

20th Northern

21st Midland

22nd Wessex and Welsh

23rd North Western

24th Home Counties

The 25th was a Reserve Battalion, UK service only at Falmouth and was not formed until later.

 

Hope that helps a little.

 

Andy

 

If you need more details, also of the 22nd let me know.

 

Edited 7 June , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[clive_hughes]

I'm sure it'll help Dave, but it's also helped me - I have an Anglesey casualty in the 22nd RB and my knowledge of the formation process was a lot thinner than the above!

 

Thanks,

Clive

[ddycher]

Andy

 

Hugely helpful thank you. Do you know which Army Order instigated this ? You have helped me before with officers and men in these units. Revisiting this after a break set me off on this thread.

 

I am working my way through the 22nd Bn. regimental numbers looking for service records at present. Lengthy process as the men were numbered alphabetically, apart from the senior NCO's, and not in groups from the original Coy's. This and the fact that most of the medal roles don't cover prior service in the Sup.Coy's means going through one by one. Slow progress but all part of gradually building a picture of the Sup. Coy's and their merging into the RB and RDC. Fascinating study but details on Halton are proving hard to track down. What was happening at Halton between 18th August (see below) and 25th September I currently have no information on. I have conflicting ref's that show between 35000~60000 men concentrating there at the time though. Did not have Grove's appointment so I am going to follow that thread and see where that leads. Anything you can share on the 22nd prior to embarking at Liverpool on the 3rd January would be much appreciated.

 

Clive - From what I have so far from the service records on hand show men from the Devon Sup.Coys were screened in August and the Class B men sent to Halton. They entrained on the 18th. Class C men were sent to the Home Service Prov. Bn, in my case the 86th then at Newsham Park, Blyth. Most of the Class B men joined the Wessex and Welsh at Halton on the 25th September. Seemingly before it was decided to number these as per Andy above.  The only Welsh Service records I have so far are for No.5 Coy, 5th Welsh.

 

I do have a poor quality photo of the original officer line up and names for the Wessex and Welsh. If either of you are interested let me know and I will upload.

 

Regards

Dave

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

Dave,

 

Very little was known of these battalions in The Rifle Brigade, having nothing to do with them or their formation with no officers or men being allocated to these battalions, TP Record office. A Regular officer, Captain R. C. Bridgeman (MC) wrote a twenty page article in the 1928 Rifle Brigade Chronicle regarding these battalions as so little was known about them.

Once I am home again I can scan this article and send it off to you without a problem, however there is no mention of Army Orders. The 22nd out of all the battalions gets more coverage, being by far the most interesting battalion, with Bridgeman thanking Col. H. Needham and Major Pauncefort Munday for their assistance, both late of the 22nd.

Always interested in pictures of the men, I have a good collection of the 18th and a photo album of the 24th with various other postcards etc. I think I have a picture of the officers of the 23rd if Clive is interested.

That is quite a task you have set yourself there, best of luck. Similar to the B/2----- series of numbers I have always found that with the archaic Ancestry search engine and horrendous transcriptions they are difficult to locate.

 

Andy

 

 

 

[ddycher]

Thanks Andy.

 

Would appreciate a copy of the paper. I will upload the photo and names tomorrow when I get home.

 

Thanks again.

Dave

[clive_hughes]

Andy and Dave,

Here's William Jones the man with Anglesey connections, if it's of interest: he has a WO364 Pensions file.  

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1114/miuk1914a_085103-02478/480189?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=miuk1914a_085103-02475

 

Born Caernarfon, resident Holyhead.  He was a former (pre-1908) Militiaman who joined the reserve 2/6th RWF in April 1915 as Pte. 3513.  He was then renumbered 20582 in the 3rd Supernumerary Company (all the Supernumerary RWF men I've seen had numbers in this 20xxx range which ran parallel to its new Army numbering system).  

 

Transferred to 22nd Rifle Brigade November 1915 as Rif. 578.  Accompanied the unit to Egypt Jan. 1916 but didn't stay long, because he was suffering from tuberculosis.  Invalided back to the UK Feb. 1916, and medically discharged that April.  However, he re-enlisted Aug. 1916 as Private 35497 in the RDC serving in 325 and 349 Protection Companies.  Invalided out again in April 1917, he died at home on 10 Feby. 1918 aged about 41.  He narrowly avoided a pauper funeral thanks to the efforts of a Holyhead town councillor, but though it's likely he was buried in the main town cemetery his grave site is at present unlocated.  A few years ago we were able to have his case accepted by the CWGC, and he is on the Brookwood 1914-18 Memorial.  

Sadly his name was one of two who were not included on the Holyhead war memorial, because by the time they were made aware of them the organisers had sent off the final list for the panels to be cast: but they named them in the list of dead on the Order of Dedication booklet when it was unveiled. 

 

If there's a photo of officers of 22nd RB I'd be pleased to see it; likewise the article from the RB Chronicle.   I can be contacted by PM and let you have my email address for convenience.  

 

Clive 

 

 

Edited 8 June , 2019 by clive_hughes

[stiletto_33853]

No problem, I will scan the article and get it to both of you.

I do have a couple of pictures of the 22nd and a few at Halton before they were issued with RB badges, although I think they went to the 23rd with a whole mixture of cap badges. One in Famagusta, Cyprus where they had to lay out imaginary camps and one on camels by the pyramids during their stay in Cairo.

Will send this to both of you as soon as I get home.

 

Andy

[ddycher]

Sorry Gents but the best I can do....

 

 

Taken at Halton in October 1915.

 

Back Row (Left to Right) : 

 

Lieut. A.G.F. Pitts, Lieut. J.D. Rogers, Lieut. G. Montague, Lieut. W.J. Taylor, Lieut. W.T. Lomax, Lieut. A.M.G Daniel, Lieut. A.H. Starkey

 

Middle Row (Left to Right) : 

 

Lieut. Walker Wilkins, Lieut. Ivor Earl, Lieut T.M. Weddell, Lieut. J.T. Gamlen, Lieut. H. Martyn, Lieut G. Fanstone (Q’master), Lieut. R.L. Marquardt. Lieut.

H. Forester, Lieut. H. Hallen, Lieut. H.B.M.S. Burton

 

Front Row (Left to Right) : 

 

Capt H.W. Chambers, Capt. H. Pugh, Lieut. H.C. Pauncefort-Munday (Adjt), Col. H. Curties (OC), Lt.-Col. A.A.D. Montague V.D. (2nd I/C), Maj. R.R. Tanner, Capt. B.C. Jones, Capt. I. Lee Stewart, Maj. C.H.R. Coles. 

 

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

Not made too much progress with Grove. He was Inspector of No.2 Line of Communications in 1915 but then nothing more until he takes command of No.7 District. Will keep looking.

 

Regards

Dave

[ddycher]

The Army order for forming the units was A.O. 187 of May 1915.  A.C.I. 28 of November 1915 converted them to TF units (both from E.A. James British Regiments 1914~1918). Haven't found a copy of either yet though.

 

regards

Dave

Edited 9 June , 2019 by ddycher

[ddycher]

Andy

 

As an aside, but related, I have a ref to the 17th Rifle Bde at Hursley Park in September 1915 but James states it wasn't formed until the October and doesn't mention Hursley Park. Separating events at Hursley Park and Halton was how I stumbled into the Wessex and Welsh. I have been able to find nothing on the 26th Reserve Bde. Do you have anything on the 17th Bn's time from formation until they were converted to the 112th Training Reserve ? Do you know if they were ever at Hursley Park or if I have a typo in the original ?

 

Regards

Dave

Edited 9 June , 2019 by ddycher

[stiletto_33853]

Will check for you Dave, although I know they spent a lot of time on Wimbledon Common. Overspill from the 16th RB.

 

Andy

[ddycher]

Thanks Andy

[stiletto_33853]

22nd at Famagusta when they were building camps

At Halton, before they were issued with Rifle Brigade badges, so pre mid December 1915

[stiletto_33853]

You can find postcards of these Territorial battalions occasionally, however they tend to be 25th usually being based in Falmouth.

 

I have now scanned that article, if you would care to send me a message with your e-mail address I will get this sent to you.

 

Andy

[ddycher]

Many thanks Andy

 

PM sent.

 

Regards

Dave

[clive_hughes]

Likewise, thank you

 

Clive