Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Recommended Posts

Skipman

Were there two features called "Sausage Ridge" This map Click has a "Sausage Ridge" south of Atawineh Redoubt. I have Sausage Ridge as being at the top (north-east) of the Wadie Hesi?

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevebecker
Posted (edited)

Mate,

 

Don't believe all this as its not so.

 

"The British estimated 21,000 Ottoman defenders at Gaza and Tel esh Sheria, 4,500 at Kh. Sihan, with a further 2,000 at Atawineh"

 

No there were not 2000 Ottoman soldiers at Atawineh or 4500 on the Sihan redoubts (Tank & the Jack & Jill Redoubts) .

 

I bet the Ottomans hoped that would be correct but sorry well below that figure.

 

Units of the 53rd Div (around 5000 + men)  held the Redoubt line, with the El Muntar, Tank and Jack & Jill and Atawineh redoubts.

 

I show

 

At the beginning of April the Ottoman forces under went an adjustment, the 8th Corps was moved back into reserve in Syria and the new 22nd Corps arrived at the front.

22nd Corps arrived at the front 18 April 1917 under the German Col Kress von Kressenstein.

The new 54th Div while not in Palestine (forming in Istanbul) had sent the 165th Regt down before the rest of the Div followed in May.

At 2nd Gaza this Regt was attached to the 53rd Div which had sent a Regt down to the Hejez.

April 1917 2nd Gaza 53rd Div 161st and 163rd Regts + Sqn/29th Cav Regt (100 men) + 165th Regt (54th Div) + 125th Regt T/att (16th Div) 

Not much had changed in the other Ottoman Div's with just over 1000 men lost at 1st Gaza on the 26/27 March 1917.

2nd Gaza

The 4th Turkish Army, under Colonel Ahmed Djamal Pasha, with the 22nd Corps under the German Kress Von Kressenstein, had rapidly increased in strength over the weeks and now consisted of three Infantry Divisions and one small Cavalry Division. These forces had strengthen the line from Gaza to Beersheba which employed the 3rd Division at Gaza, the 16th Division (less the 79th Regiment) at Tell et Sheria and the 53rd Division plus the 79th Regiment (16th Division) on the Khirbet Sihan line occupying a number of redoubts along the Gaza-Beersheba road. The 3rd Cavalry Division was held in reserve, and would later move down to Tel esh Sheria on the 17th April with the approach of the Desert Column. The total Turkish forces in all Palestine were around 48,000 and 101 guns of which only 18,000 were near the battle area at the time of the attack.

Garrisoning this line was the Turkish 53rd Division, a good quality Anatolian Division under the veteran command of Colonel Selahattin Bey, with the 163rd Regiment on the right in the area of El Muntar, and the 165th Regiment holding the area of the Khirbet Sihan redoubts, including the Tank, Jack and Jill and Atawine Redoubts, while the 161st Regiment was in reserve near Hirbet - Ruseym, ready to move to any threaten area. The 125th Regiment (16th Division) under Major Hayri Bey, was also held in reserve at Berti Cered, until the morning of the 18th/19th April when it was moved down to the area of Hirbetel-Kufiye. The 14th Artillery Regiment had all its batteries deployed along the front with two groups east of the Tank Redoubt and one west. Three companies of Engineers were also attached to the Division, as was the Austro Hungarian 2/6th “Obus” 6x 100mm Gun Gerbirgshaubitz (Mountain) Battery under Lieutenant Lewicki, along with a team of AAA guns (Two 37mm Maschinen Flugabwehr Kanonen auf Sockel) from the Bavarian Flakzug 136, under Lieutenant de Reserve Bader.

Basicly the 3rd Div (31 32 138 Regts) held Gaza
53rd Div (163 165 Regts) held the Redoubt line 161 Regt & part 125 Regt supported during battle
16th Div (47 48 + 79 Regts) and the 3rd Cav Div + part 125 Regt on the Sheria line
Beersheba Garrision parts 79 & 81 Regt

 

Allied intel reports on this Vetern Division show it as;

3rd Div
shown Jan 1917 1-4/161st Regt replaced 39th Regt (disbanded Feb 1917 31st Regt reformed from 80th Regt) - 
shown Jan - Feb 1917 Allied reports 31st Regt 32nd Regt 1-4/160th Regt (reported disbanded after Rafa?) 
shown March 1917 Allied reports 1st Gaza 3rd Div (9000 men + 100 Cav + 3xMG Co's 18 MG's + 24 guns) 
shown March 1917 Turkish reports 31st Regt 32nd Regt 138th Regt att 3rd Cav Div

shown Jan 1917 - 1MBty/1st FAR 1MBty/9th FAR 1MBty/11th FAR 1MBty/3rd Mountain FAR 1Bty/11th FAR - 
shown Jan 1917 1Bn/5th FAR 2Bn/6th FAR 7MBty/27th FAR 1MBty/36th FAR
shown March 1917 Allied reports - 1Bn/3rd FAR (8x 75mm QF guns) 2Bn/3rd FAR (8x 75mm QF guns) 3Bn/3rd FAR (8x 87mm Mantelli Mountain Guns) 
shown March 1917 Turkish reports att 254 Heavy How bty (2x150mm guns) 

The newly arrived 3rd Cavalry Division from the Caucasian Front where it was in action against the Russian forces around Lake Van and where its Regts were in sorry condition;

3rd Cav Div
shown Feb 1917- 6th Cav Regt + 7th Cav Regt (500 men + 8 guns) + 1-3/138th Regt & 138th MG Co (3rd Div) (1500 men) while the 8th Cav Regt det to Hejaz- 
shown March 1917 Allied reports 1st Gaza 3rd Cav Div 6th Cav Regt 8th Cav Regts (1500 men 11 guns) + 125th Regt (2500 men 6xMG's)
shown March 1917 Turkish reports at 1st Gaza att 1-3/138th Regt & 138th MG Co (3rd Div) (1500 men)

shown Feb 1917 Turkish reports (8x75mm guns) 
shown March 1917 Allied reports (2x 75mm QF guns + 9x 75mm Mountain guns + 2x AA guns) 

Other Divisons of the 8th Corps were in garrision in Palestine/Syria, these included the 23rd Div, 24th Div and the 27th Div (in reserve Gaza Front).

By march 1917 the Vetern 16th Div arrived at the Front for the 8th Corps. It took over the defences at Gaza;

16th Div
shown Feb 1917 Allied reports 16th Div (7000 men) 47th Regt 48th Regt 125th Regt (1500 men) - 
shown March 1917 Allied reports - 1st Gaza 47th & 48th Regts (4750 men 12 Mgs) + Div Cav (100 men) 16 guns with 125th Regt (2500 men) att 3rd Cav Div) 
shown March 1917 Turkish reports at 1st Gaza 125th Regt att Gaza Garrison
 

In reserve was the 27th Div;

27th Div
shown Feb 1917 Allied reports - 1-4Bn/79th Regt 1-4Bn/81st Regt with 4Bn/80th Regt (1Bn disbanded to 3rd Div 2Bn&3Bn captured at Magdhaba 4Bn only) - shown 27th Div had 18 Mgs (81st Regt 18 Mgs) T/att 2nd Regt - 
shown March 1917 Allied reports 1st Gaza 81st Regt (2500 men 6 Mgs + Div Cav (100 men) + 5 guns + 2x AA guns) 
shown March 1917 Turkish reports at 1st Gaza 79th Regt and 2Bn/81st Regt att Gaza defences

shown Turkish Dec 1916 report 1Bn/25th FAR (3xBtys) 2Bn/23rd FAR (3xBtys) 1Bn/5th FAR (2xBtys)
By March 1917 most of these guns were gone
 

53rd Div
shown Feb 1917 Allied reports 53rd Div 161st Regt 162nd Regt 163rd Regt - 
shown March 1917 battles Gaza -1st Gaza 53rd Div (5000 men) 161st 163rd Regts (around 1300 men each) + Sqn/29th Cav Regt (100 men) + 8 guns possibly 162nd Regt sent to the Hejaz 58th Div)

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skipman

Many thanks Steve. Will treat it with extreme caution. I thought at least the map might be ok as they look decentquality; are the maps inaccurate too?

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevebecker
Posted (edited)

Mate,

 

I found the details I wrote about;

 

"The walk marks the 103rd anniversary of the 1914 operation, in which nearly 90,000 Ottoman soldiers froze to death"

 

"This is an exagerated figure. The Ottoman official history admitts 43000 dead (incuding combat deaths). The cheif of staff for the Third Army, Lieutenant Colonel Guse, gave the losses as 37000 dead and 7000 missing in total"

 

"Yes the move away from Van by the 33rd Div and with the 34th Div at Bitlis of the 11th Corps, allowed the city (Van) to rebel and brought the Russians to advance in early 1915 and take that city?

11th Corps is shown as

Galip Pasa (Pasinler) 1914 to 1-15 - Gen Abdül Kerim Pasa (Öpelimi) 3-15
Deputy - Ali Ihsan (Sabis) 1915 

Garrison Van 1914 - 33rd Div at Van - 34th Div at Bitlis (and 18th Div at Harput + three border bns & four Jandarma bns + 11th Cav Bde) - shown Erickson Nov 1914 3rd Army 11th Corps (22273 men 16 Mgs 94 guns) - battles Hudut-Koprukoy-Azap on Nov 1st-Dec 19th 1914 fought 1st battle at Köprüköy 7-11-14 and 2nd battle at Köprüköy 12-11-14 defeated at Sarikamis Dec 1914

Corps Arty & support units

11th Horse Arty Bn 2xBttys (8x 75mm guns) possibly with 11 Cav Bde

25th Cav Regt (1914) 11th Eng Bn - 11th Train Bn - 11th Sig Co - 11th Model Bn

What there total losses were after these battles are not mentioned but Erickson does list the 11th Corps strength 24 March 1915 as

261 officers and 7,806 men

so if 22,273 in Oct 1914 its loses between these dates can be found to be possibly around 14,000 all ranks"

 

Sorry my mistake the losses were about 2/3's not 1/3

 

So total losses around 40,000 + appears close to what I see from the two other Corps who lost the most.

 

It should also be remembered that the Third Army had not fully moblieized, the distances and isolation of that front ment many men had not arrived at the time of fighting, All the Cav Div's (mostly Reseve or Tribal Cav) were far from full strength, along with the regular Infantry.

 

Guns were many older types and the limited MGs ment the Ottomans at many disadvantages when fighting the stronger Russians forces.

 

I do have the Order of Battle for both sides in this fight, and the Russians were strong in both Infantry and Cavalry, and had many more guns, I don't know there total MGs for the Russians at that time.

 

S.B

 

 

 

Edited by stevebecker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eran Tearosh

Mike,

 

Yes, there are two 'Sausage Ridge's, exactly where you discribed. 

 

As to the 'Sausage ridge' just north of Wad el-Hesi - taking a shortcut, look at this Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Wadi_el_Hesi

 

Detailed info in the BHO (Falls) and the 52nd Division's history (Probablaly the best Divional History I encountered so far).

 

I visited this battlefield several times, on my own and during a couple of 'The Society for the Heritage of World War One in Israel's field tours.

 

Eran 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skipman

Thank you very much Eran. I am laboriously transcribing the 52nd Divisional History at the moment. Am eventually identifying the places and trying to grasp the different spellings of places. The maps and images I posted recently are helping.

 

Cheers Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eran Tearosh

I know most of the sites. If you need assistance - I'm here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skipman
2 hours ago, Eran Tearosh said:

I know most of the sites. If you need assistance - I'm here

 

Many thanks Eran. If I get stuck I will be in touch. :thumbsup:

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...