Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
rolt968

Would Lance Sergeant appear on a medal inscription?

Recommended Posts

rolt968
Posted (edited)

Since it was an appointment not a rank would lance sergeant appear in a medal inscription? (I have been trying to remember if I have run across it before.)

Alexander Murray S/7101, Gordon Highlanders went to France on 9 July 1915 (probably with 10 Battalion. He was awarded the MM (LG 6 Decemeber 1916) as a lance sergeant. He subsequently served as Corporal, WR/ 322089, Royal Engineers. I attach part of his MIRC (ancestry):

Partmircgwf.jpg.5af2e67ff59fd5e39de74b9f64c0c3aa.jpg

The only correction seems to be the Gordon Highlanders serial number. Should lance sergeant have appeared on the BWM and Victory Medal?

RM

Edited by rolt968

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Upton
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, rolt968 said:

...Should lance sergeant have appeared on the BWM and Victory Medal?...

 

Simple answer is no:

 

 

Medals rank regiment instructions 2.jpg

 

However, in my experience rank inscribed on medals seems to be the one that most deviates from the official instructions, and there are likely examples out there that do not follow the rule.

Edited by Andrew Upton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jim Strawbridge

Andrew's note suggests not.    In practice I have about twenty medals inscribed as L/SJT. or L.SJT. across many different regiments. Medals to lance corporals are common, lance sergeant less so.




 







 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rolt968
11 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Simple answer is no:

 

 

Medals rank regiment instructions 2.jpg

 

However, in my experience rank inscribed on medals seems to be the one that most deviates from the official instructions, and there are likely examples out there that do not follow the rule.

Many thanks, Andrew. It is good to see that kind of thing in writing.

2 hours ago, Jim Strawbridge said:

Andrew's note suggests not.    In practice I have about twenty medals inscribed as L/SJT. or L.SJT. across many different regiments. Medals to lance corporals are common, lance sergeant less so.

Thinking hard, I know I have seen at least one L/Cpl medal inscription 0n a 1914 Star (the accompanying BWM and Victory have Capt).

RM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bif

Rolt, Andrew, and Jim.  I thought that little X and four dots around it were the notation to the engraver as to what was to be applied to the medal or medals.  If I/'m correct, this shows both the BWM and AVM should be L/Cpl,  RE.  We need to dig out Mr Williamson"s Companion to verify.  Remember that the MIC's were thought of and designed as a short hand for the medal engravers.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rolt968
1 hour ago, bif said:

Rolt, Andrew, and Jim.  I thought that little X and four dots around it were the notation to the engraver as to what was to be applied to the medal or medals.  If I/'m correct, this shows both the BWM and AVM should be L/Cpl,  RE.  We need to dig out Mr Williamson"s Companion to verify.  Remember that the MIC's were thought of and designed as a short hand for the medal engravers.

 

It is a rather curly C at the beginning of "Cpl" (as in the medal roll). You can see why there were errors in medal inscriptions!

(There were no lance corporals in the Royal Engineers in WW1:

RM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Clifton
2 hours ago, bif said:

Rolt, Andrew, and Jim.  I thought that little X and four dots around it were the notation to the engraver as to what was to be applied to the medal or medals.  If I/'m correct, this shows both the BWM and AVM should be L/Cpl,  RE.  We need to dig out Mr Williamson"s Companion to verify.  Remember that the MIC's were thought of and designed as a short hand for the medal engravers.

 

The regimental details on the medal, as indicated by the X and four dots, were those of the unit with which a man first entered a theatre of war, and the rank details similarly indicated the highest rank he achieved before 11.11.18. So, the medals should show him as a Corporal, since Lance-Sergeant was an appointment, not a rank, as explained in earlier posts.

 

9 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

(There were no lance corporals in the Royal Engineers in WW1:



Yes, there were, but again this was an appointment. Second-corporal was a one-chevron rank in the RE and the AOC, just as Bombardier was a one-stripe rank in the various branches of the Royal Artillery: there was also the appointment of acting (later lance) Bombardier who also wore one stripe.

 

Ron

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bif
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

It is a rather curly C at the beginning of "Cpl

Rolt,   Do you have the medals or at least access to them ?  If so, what's on the medals ?

Edited by bif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rolt968
7 minutes ago, bif said:

Rolt,   Do you have the medals or at least access to them ?  If so, what's on the medals ?

No, I do have the medal rolls.

The BWM and Victory Medal were originally issued to Cpl Alexander Murray S/7101, Gordon Highlanders

The 1914-15 Star was originally issued to Pte A Murray S/701, Gordon Highlanders.

(I notice that he was actually an acting corporal in the RE.)

 

It is interesting. Although the error in the serial number seems to have been on the 1914-15 Star, it looks as if all three were returned for alteration.

RM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bif
1 minute ago, rolt968 said:

alteration

You mean the s701 to s/7101 ?  If I may ask, what prompted you to research him ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jim Strawbridge

I have seven medals to the R.E. inscribed with L.CPL. They are all on 1914/5 stars. I believe that 1914/5 stars were "prepared" first for issue and I wonder if rules changed before the BWMs and victory medals were sent to be impressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rolt968
13 hours ago, bif said:

You mean the s701 to s/7101 ?  If I may ask, what prompted you to research him ?

 

Complicated.

He is the brother of a man on a war memorial I am researching.

 

The latest scan of the old newspapers for his family showed up a report that he had written to his mother telling her that he had been awarded an MM. (Also giving his rank as sergeant.) A search of the Gazette for the [S/]701 serial number produced nothing and I began to wonder if he had written on the strength of an officer telling him that he had been recommended for an MM. However a search of the Gazette using 7101 finds him. The date of the report is very close to date of the LG.

RM

4 hours ago, Jim Strawbridge said:

I have seven medals to the R.E. inscribed with L.CPL. They are all on 1914/5 stars. I believe that 1914/5 stars were "prepared" first for issue and I wonder if rules changed before the BWMs and victory medals were sent to be impressed.

Interesting. I think that Andrew's point about frequent deviation from official instructions is well made.

 

RM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...