Accidental Shooting Down

[pete-c]

Could anyone help me in identifying the aircraft (possibly BE2) in which Admiral Usborne (Passenger) was accidentally shot down over the Dardanelles circa 1917?   The aircraft was possibly recovered by HMS Racoon.

Edited 24 May , 2019 by pete-c

[topgun1918]

The only Usborne I have listed as a casualty is Wing Cdr Neville Florian Usborne who was killed in B.E.2c 989 on 21 February 1916, along with Sqn Cdr De Courcy Wyndor Plunkett Ireland.  The B.E. had been fitted to Airship AP1 at Kingsnorth Naval Air Station during the first two weeks of 1916 before being lost in a crash.  The reason given for the crash was the loss of pressure in the airship's envelope when at about 4,000 feet, causing buckling of the envelope and in turn, causing the forward suspension cable supporting the aeroplane to part.  The B.E.2 briefly hung nose-down, before the rear cables also failed and it fell in a slide-slip before turning over, ejecting Ireland who fell to his death.  Usborne remained with the plane until it crashed in Strood station goods yard.

 

However, this was in the United Kingdom, not the Dardanelles.

 

Graeme

 

 

 

[pete-c]

47 minutes ago, topgun1918 said:

The only Usborne I have listed as a casualty is Wing Cdr Neville Florian Usborne who was killed in B.E.2c 989 on 21 February 1916, along with Sqn Cdr De Courcy Wyndor Plunkett Ireland.  The B.E. had been fitted to Airship AP1 at Kingsnorth Naval Air Station during the first two weeks of 1916 before being lost in a crash.  The reason given for the crash was the loss of pressure in the airship's envelope when at about 4,000 feet, causing buckling of the envelope and in turn, causing the forward suspension cable supporting the aeroplane to part.  The B.E.2 briefly hung nose-down, before the rear cables also failed and it fell in a slide-slip before turning over, ejecting Ireland who fell to his death.  Usborne remained with the plane until it crashed in Strood station goods yard.

 

However, this was in the United Kingdom, not the Dardanelles.

 

Graeme

 

 

 

 

Thanks Graeme.  I did find details for NF Usborne (a son perhaps?)  Also, I should have pointed out that the Admiral and his pilot were apparently uninjured in the subsequent ditching of this aircraft.   The details are contained within the book Dardanelles - A Midshipman's Diary by HM Denham, together with an image of the subsequent recovery of the aircraft but unfortunately the serial is unreadable.

[horatio2]

3 hours ago, pete-c said:

accidentally shot down over the Dardanelles circa 1917?

The HM Denham diary stops at the end of 1915 (can you quote the page numbers, please?).

There was no Admiral Usborne in WW1. It might possibly refer to Commander (Captain 6/1916) Cecil V USBORNE RN. He commanded the minelayer HMS LATONA in the eastern Med in 1916 and 1917.

[pete-c]

6 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

The HM Denham diary stops at the end of 1915 (can you quote the page numbers, please?).

There was no Admiral Usborne in WW1. It might possibly refer to Commander (Captain 6/1916) Cecil V USBORNE RN. He commanded the minelayer HMS LATONA in the eastern Med in 1916 and 1917.

 

That's interesting.  page no 193.  Denman visits the  '...deserted Dardanelles ...'    1916 would perhaps be nearer the mark.

[horatio2]

Thanks. Apparently it was CV Usborne - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VQWkDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28&dq=captain+c+v+usborne&source=bl&ots=s2I7E-VrhP&sig=ACfU3U1iHeeP9AsYF-STNLpbOS5_jdFtdg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7qtTw6rTiAhXOAWMBHSNhDNAQ6AEwDXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=captain c v usborne&f=false

[pete-c]

33 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Thanks. Apparently it was CV Usborne - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VQWkDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT28&lpg=PT28&dq=captain+c+v+usborne&source=bl&ots=s2I7E-VrhP&sig=ACfU3U1iHeeP9AsYF-STNLpbOS5_jdFtdg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7qtTw6rTiAhXOAWMBHSNhDNAQ6AEwDXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=captain c v usborne&f=false

 

Great stuff h2 - many thanks.

[michaeldr]

This incident is also covered his own book:  'Blast and Counterblast' by C. V. Usborne (pub. 1935, by John Murray)

see Chapter 11 - The Dardanelles Patrol, pages 103 to 108

Alas, Usborne does not give specific details of the aircraft or name the pilot

 

Not only were they shot down, but...

"The worst was yet to come, for though the shrapnel had ceased from troubling, a maxim gun still played upon us, and why neither of us was hit remains a mystery to this day.

No remedy occurred to me, but the pilot was more resourceful. Up went his hands, and I am sure that he would have cried 'Kamerad' had the destroyers been near enough to hear him. It was a brilliant idea. My hands went up too, and the S.N.O. surrendered to his patrol destroyer."

 

[michaeldr]

A ps from Usborne himself (same book)

"There was some excuse, for I had not warned the patrol destroyers beforehand of the reconnaissance, and since there were no casualties no fuss was made."

And a final word from the VA's CoS - "Your report on the minefield is most valuable and interesting, and I'm glad that you escaped."

 

[horatio2]

Thanks for sharing those extracts, Michael. A pity date, pilot and aircraft are not mentioned.

[pete-c]

1 hour ago, michaeldr said:

A ps from Usborne himself (same book)

"There was some excuse, for I had not warned the patrol destroyers beforehand of the reconnaissance, and since there were no casualties no fuss was made."

And a final word from the VA's CoS - "Your report on the minefield is most valuable and interesting, and I'm glad that you escaped."

 

 

Usborne's neglect in warning other ships of the flight may well explain why I have yet to find any mention of the actual shooting down in the relevant Weekly Operations Reports.  As he rightly states - no casualties, but I bet he wasn't flavour of the month with the RNAS Wing Captain for being responsible for the loss of an aircraft!  

 

 

 

 

[pete-c]

I think I've just found the answer.

 

ADM 137/546 contains a report, headed, HMS Latona, for a reconnaissance of the Dardanelles minefield on December 13 1916.  The pilot was Flt Sub Lt P C Passman  R.N.F.C. (this was likely Percy Charles Consett Passman,  but R.N.F.C. ??)   The aircraft was apparently a B.E. (probably a B.E.2c)   Several B.E.2cs were operating from Imbros during this period but I'm having difficulty in identifying which one it was.  Possible machines include: 8329, 8330, 8331, 8332, 8333 and 8334.

 

The report is very detailed with regard to the various mines spotted, but no mention is made of how the flight ended!   The report was seemingly compiled by C V Usborne, but it is un-signed.  And it's interesting to note that according to the extract in Michael's post, Usborne obviously reported the accident to the Vice Admiral.

[michaeldr]

This [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/HMS_Beagle_(1909)] gives the same date, however the pilot and observer (sic) are  not named here

On 13 December 1916 Beagle and Racoon were involved in a friendly fire incident when on patrol near Kum Kale. Both destroyers raced to engage a low flying aircraft. HMS Racoon fired four shells causing damaged to the aircraft and forcing it to alight on the water. HMS Racoon rescued the French (?) pilot and observer then towed the aircraft to Kephelo Air Base on Imbros

 

Edit to add - Is the photograph in Denham's book (No.129 on p.193) the aircraft being towed back to Imbros?

Edited 25 May , 2019 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

There is a recording of Denham at the IWM which may possibly cover this incident 
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80008665
A line to our member Mr. Peter Hart may clarify

[pete-c]

6 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

This [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/HMS_Beagle_(1909)] gives the same date, however the pilot and observer (sic) are  not named here

On 13 December 1916 Beagle and Racoon were involved in a friendly fire incident when on patrol near Kum Kale. Both destroyers raced to engage a low flying aircraft. HMS Racoon fired four shells causing damaged to the aircraft and forcing it to alight on the water. HMS Racoon rescued the French (?) pilot and observer then towed the aircraft to Kephelo Air Base on Imbros

 

Edit to add - Is the photograph in Denham's book (No.129 on p.193) the aircraft being towed back to Imbros?

 

Michael - yes, the image 129 is of the machine in question.  Frustratingly the serial of the machine is too faint to be identified with any certainty.  And by the look of the way the machine is secured, I would doubt if it was of further use!   Thank you for the nod towards Peter Hart - I wasn't aware that he was a member.

[michaeldr]

24 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Both destroyers raced to engage a low flying aircraft.

 

Usborne says one destroyer signaled the other "I think she is ours"

However Racoon/Denham misinterpreted this as a claim on the target

and replied "No, she is my bird"

Edited 25 May , 2019 by michaeldr

[b3rn]

Stumbled across this today.

 

December 13th.-Aeroplane observed coming from Kum-Kale region 9.30 a.m. ; coming very low. 309 four miles south of Rabbit Islands. Aeroplane appears to be coming very low over our minefields, taking observations very closely. Destroyers Racoon and Beagle give chase, whilst trawlers 309 Bassanio, 803 Agatha, steamed towards the scene; cleared gun away. Racoon destroyer opens fire on aeroplane, fired four rounds. Aeroplane is coming down close to the destroyers. Trawlers arrived near scene. Aeroplane marked French distinguishing colours ; destroyer Racoon rescued the two occupants, and took damaged aeroplane in tow to Imbros, Kephelo air-base. Are the Turks using false colours ? "Screw loose again."

 

December 14th.-Heard the occupants of aeroplane were from H.M.S. Latona, S.N.O. Commander, R.N., from Kephalo; seems strange these destroyers and patrol should not have been acquainted; cannot trust our own destroyers. The action of the aeroplane moving abut the minefields would lead many a patrol vessel to do the same. One cannot trust the Germans, when they use any suitable ensign to gain an obiect, also paint to disguise, seems to be a foolish act where such a sharp look-out is kept by the patrol of destroyers and trawlers at this monotonous spot by S.N.O.

 

THE WORK OF A TRAWLER IN THE AEGEAN SEA
NAVAL REVIEW, 1918, p. 58.