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John French

Private Arthur Rider - 5th Battalion Buffs/6th Dragoon Guards

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John French

UK Soldier Died in the Great War website suggests Rider first joined the 6th (Carabiniers) Dragoon Guards (service number 5075) in Halifax before the war, presumably as a regular soldier.  Please could anyone estimate an enlistment date and where he might be found in the 1911 Census (not in his home village of Little Chesterford or vicinity).  

 

He then appears to have joined 5th Buffs (East Kent Regiment) a Territorial division with service number 3104, later T241081 and was subsequently  killed-in-action in Mesopotamia (CWGC lists him incorrectly as Ryder).  As the battalion was shipped to Mesopotamia in 1915, I cannot understand why his medal card does not show a 1915 Star.

 

Also I haven't been able to find any war gratuity record, which might indicate his length of service and whether he was married.  

 

I suspect Rider may have a complex military record and would appreciate any information or insights.

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wandererpaul
wandererpaul
Posted (edited)

Removed, as incorrect.

Edited by wandererpaul

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John French

Craig, thanks for his war gratuity record showing estimated enlistment date as 25/8/1914.  Identity is confirmed as gratuity went to his sister Elizabeth Ellen (see discussion below).

 

Wandererpaul, thanks for the handwritten medal roll, which suggests his service in the Buffs, as follows:

 - Joined 2nd Battalion 25/8/14 as Private G6759 with service in France sometime in 1915 (earning his 1915 Star)

 - Transferred to 1/5th Battalion (Territorials?) on 22/6/15 (disiembarkation date 2nd Buffs on medal card?) as Private 3104 (later T241081) then redeployed to Mesopotamia in Dec 1915 

 - Killed in action 24/2/17     

I looked at the 1911 Census data you provided and I think this is a different Arthur Rider born 1893 also in Little Chesterford.  Father William is identical, but Mother Eliza is wrong and there is no sister Elizabeth Ellen.  I wonder whether this may be the man who enlisted in the 6th Dragoon Guards, as his father was a horseman by trade?

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wandererpaul

There are two Arthur William Rider’s born in Little Chesterford and registered in Saffron Walden. One born 1887 and one born 1893.

 

The born 1893 has a father named William and a sister Ellen. The other A W Rider (1887) has a father named William but no sisters named Elizabeth or Ellen.

 

I think more research in to these two need looking at. As the trees on ancestry seem mixed up, imo.

 

One survived and died in the 1930’s and married a Georgina Dockerill.

 

more research required......

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wandererpaul
Posted (edited)

Arthur William Rider.

 

Born 1887 Little Chesterford. Baptised 28 August 1887 Little Chesterford, Essex. Father; William. Mother; Mary.

 

The other Arthur William Rider died aged 39 in 1932. (b. 1893 Little Chesterford, Essex.).

 

Therefore that 1911 Census is incorrect.

 

Could he be abroad?

 

Here's a record of birth for Elizabeth Ellen Rider. Baptised 1875. They have the same Father and Mother as Arthur William.

 

In 1911 she is living here. 53 Albert Family Dwellings, Albert St, Mile End, New Town.

 

William Rider is now a widower and is living with Frederick here in 1911.

 

 

Edited by wandererpaul

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John French

Wanderpaul, I checked the 1881 Census for Arthur W Rider's father William and he did have a 5 year old daughter Elizabeth Ellen, who had moved out by the 1891 Census - see attached

 

Do you think the reference to enlistment in the 6th Dragoon Guards could be an error on Arthur W Rider's record on the UK Soldiers died in the Great War database?  I haven't been able to trace details of Private 5075's enlistment.

1881 Census with parents and sister Elizabeth.jpg

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wandererpaul
Posted (edited)

The number, 5075, would mean he joined the 6th Dragoon Guards circa 1902/1903.

 

Service Numbers Here........

 

4789 joined on 28th January 1902 & 5126 joined on 31st January 1903

Edited by wandererpaul

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John French

Wandererpaul, your estimated enlistment date of 1902 definitely rules out Rider the younger (aged 9), but raises some questions about Rider the older (aged 15).  He might have lied about his age at enlistment and could then have served 7 years and been back in civvy street by 1911.  However, if he had been a regular army cavalrymen, why did he join the Infantry in 1914 and why wasn't he promoted with all that experience and service time?

 

I'm happy we have established his service in the Buffs, but I have doubts whether he was a dragoon - any comments or suggestions welcome.

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wandererpaul

It’s definitely the 1887 birth....I think that’s now be confirmed. Plus his census for 1891 and 1901 confirm this.

 

It could be that he enlisted, sometime around the end of 1902, and got found out? Under age? Then Discharged and went somewhere else.......we’ll never know, it seems. Odd that he’s not anywhere with father, brothers or sisters in 1911. One to be missed off the censuses?

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clk

Hi,

 

12 hours ago, wandererpaul said:

The number, 5075, would mean he joined the 6th Dragoon Guards circa 1902/1903.

 

Service Numbers Here........

 

4789 joined on 28th January 1902 & 5126 joined on 31st January 1903

 

 

2 hours ago, John French said:

I'm happy we have established his service in the Buffs, but I have doubts whether he was a dragoon - any comments or suggestions welcome

 

A couple of things that Paul Nixon says...

 

"In December 1906, Army Order 289 completely changed the numbering for cavalry of the line. Prior to this, all cavalry regiments had numbered individually by regiments. Now, line cavalry and household cavalry were separated; each of the three line cavalry corps – dragoons, hussars, and lancers – beginning a new number series which started at 1 and was to extend to 49,999"; and...

"When the First World War erupted an additional General Service number sequence was introduced (recruits’ numbers being prefixed with GS/) whilst career cavalrymen continued to use the corps number series".

 

There are papers which show:

GS/5069 Perdue - attested 12.9.1914

GS/5747 Brown - attested 9.11.1914

GS/5765 Taylor  - attested 9.11.1914

GS/5772 Enoch  - attested 9.11.1914

 

Perhaps a 'GS' prefix is missing from his SDGW record?

 

16 hours ago, John French said:

- Joined 2nd Battalion 25/8/14 as Private G6759 with service in France sometime in 1915 (earning his 1915 Star)

 

The date of (the month from) 25th August 1914 is one that is based on the War Gratuity that was paid. It is a refection of his entire war service (i.e. at home and abroad) and doesn't reflect when he joined the 2nd Bn.

 

A couple of other records that may be relevant to his East Kent service:

G/6747 Kitson - transferred from the Calvery Reserve and posted 3rd Bn 2.6.1915. Posted 2nd Bn 22.6.15

G/6759

G/6771 Foy - transferred from the Calvery Reserve and posted 3rd Bn 2.6.1915. Posted 2nd Bn 22.6.15

 

His Star roll record indicates that he disembarked (F&F) 22.6.1915. That date is also shown as the disembarkation date for Kitson and Foy. In the Bn war diary, the first draft of men arriving in the field after the 22nd June seems to be 142 ORs ("...mostly men who had enlisted for the cavalry") on 25th June.

 

With respect to his (3104/251081) 1/5 East Kent numbers, the TF was renumbered in 1917, with men within a battalion usually being renumbered to 6 digit numbers based sequentially on their previous (often 4 digit) number. If you were to look for surviving service papers for men that served in the 5th Bn, and had numbers near his you will hopefully be able to approximate when he was transferred to the battalion.  

 

Regards

Chris

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ss002d6252
Quote

 

There are papers which show:

GS/5069 Perdue - attested 12.9.1914

GS/5747 Brown - attested 9.11.1914

GS/5765 Taylor  - attested 9.11.1914

GS/5772 Enoch  - attested 9.11.1914

 

 

Certainly fits with the War Gratuity, which gives the month from 25 Aug 14.


Craig

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John French

I am now a little more confused, but thank you all for your researching efforts.

 

 - If the 5705 6th Dragoons service number is correct it either means a 1902 enlistment (aged 15) or a post-1906 enlistment (aged 19+) both as a regular army cavalryman, though not present at 1911 Census.  Presumably he could have served 7 years and then been in the reserves (consistent with Kitson/Foy' transfer to the Buffs).  As an Army reserve he would have been mobilised in August 1914 (consistent with his war gratuity).

 - If his service number was GS5705 (and recorded incorrectly), this means a first enlistment in 1914 in the 6th Dragoons and presumably service with them in England before transfer to the Buffs (else he would have earned the 1915 Star with the 6th Dragoons).

 

Is there a listing of Army reserves for the pre-war period, which might clarify the situation?

 

Chris, please would you explain the term 'dis-embarkation on his Star medal card?  Does it mean first arrival in France?

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clk

Hi,

 

13 hours ago, John French said:

Chris, please would you explain the term 'dis-embarkation on his Star medal card?  Does it mean first arrival in France?

 

In most cases, yes it does - literally when they got off the ship. 

 

 My guess is that he wasn't a 'regular' cavalry man, so he wasn't numbered out of the 'regular' sequence. A general service number of 5075 would appear to date from mid/late September 1914, which ties back to his calculated enlistment date (from the amount of his War Gratuity payment) for the month 25th August to 25th September 1914. If he were to be the man born circa 1897, that would make him aged 17 or so.

 

Taking Kitson as an example, his service record shows:

Kitson.jpg.b14ea352eee0b5416c103e3cdcfd28bf.jpg

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

Putting to one side the initial dates, I suspect that your chap followed the same later service path.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

 

 

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ss002d6252
Quote

Presumably he could have served 7 years and then been in the reserves (consistent with Kitson/Foy' transfer to the Buffs

If he had been a serving reservist at the outbreak of the war then the war gratuity would have reflected this, it doesn't. The evidence all currently fits towards what Chris has posted.


Craig

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clk
Posted (edited)

Hi,

 

On ‎21‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 15:39, clk said:

With respect to his (3104/251081) 1/5 East Kent numbers, the TF was renumbered in 1917, with men within a battalion usually being renumbered to 6 digit numbers based sequentially on their previous (often 4 digit) number.

 

From the link in the quote box above, the LLT says that the line units of the 5th Battalion were renumbered from the number block 240001 to 265000. Surviving papers show:

 

3091/241071 Hunt - to 3/5th Bn 13.1.1916; to 1/5th Bn 21.1.1916

3099/241076 Morris*  - to 3/5th Bn 13.1.1916; to 1/5th Bn 21.1.1916

3104/241081

3141/241109 Stapleton - to 3/5th Bn 13.1.1916; to 1/5th Bn 21.1.1916

 

*These papers show that Morris embarked in Devonport on 22.1.1916, and disembarked Busra [Basra] 23.2.1916. That would seem to give rise to the possibility that Rider was wounded/fell sick with the 2nd Bn, and returned to the UK, where once he had recovered he was recycled to the 5th.

 

As a mute point, I don't think that he ever actually served under his 241081 number. He died in February1917, but renumbering didn't take effect until the start of March 1917. 

 

Regards

Chris

Edited by clk

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