Help with swords

[alastaircox]

Family lore has it that these two swords came back from WW1.  I think they are more likely mid-19th Century and unlikely to have been in use during WW1.  I have tried in vain to identify the patterns.  The one hanging left to right is marked to the hilt AF3530, it has a slightly chequered wooden handle with single rivet, plain steel guard with hanger, slightly curved blade. To the right, the all markings have been over-stamped with XXXs, looks like 7KD2, two rivets to the wooden handle, the guard is pierced and modestly decorated, straight blade. Please can a sword expert assist with pattern, service and nationality?

 

 

[Jools mckenna]

Looks like the undecorated sword is the 1908 pattern British cavalry sword and the more decorated one is the 1912 pattern British officers cavalry sword(perhaps slightly customised).

Edited 18 May , 2019 by Jools mckenna

[alastaircox]

Thank you. The little vagaries like the curved blade of the P1908 and other minor variations are normal, depending who made the swords and where? 

[Jools mckenna]

15 minutes ago, alastaircox said:

Thank you. The little vagaries like the curved blade of the P1908 and other minor variations are normal, depending who made the swords and where? 

Actually, after a second look, I'm not sure the undecorated one is a P1908.

[reese williams]

Neither of those are British and certainly not P1908 or P1912.  I would suggest posting a Help Identify post on this website

 

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?11-Antique-amp-Military-Sword-Forum

 

and you will get a well educated answer.

[calibre792x57.y]

Reese williams comment is correct - neither sword is British. - I think that the pipe-backed bladed one could be a German cavalry sword.  Has the front of the guard an eagle device?  -SW

Edited 18 May , 2019 by calibre792x57.y
Add info.

[NorthStaffsPOW]

I would agree that the sword with the pipe backed blade is a German (I think Model 1889?), I believe the other with the slightly curved blade will be Italian, but not sure which model. Hope this helps.

[trajan]

The right-hand one is certainly unit marked German-style. GB cancellations tend to be (in my experience) a scribe-through with a horizintal line, German cancellations come usually as square cross-hatched hammer-marks or as a row of X's, as here. In fact the visible marking "7.K.D.2" is certainly German: "7th Kavallerie-Division, nebst Feld Verwaltungsbehörden, Waffe 2" and so the "7th Cavalry Division, field administration branch, weapon no. 2". The style of the marking is certainly appropriate for WW1 as it is found in the German Regulations for 1909.

 

If it is possible to get a better photograph of all those marks I can have a go at doing them all - no promises though!

 

Trajan

[alastaircox]

Fantastic, thank you very much everyone.

[Gunner Bailey]

Pre WW1 I'd say.

[alastaircox]

Could it be Indian?

[RGJDEE]

Going to suggest Italian M1909 Cavalry Sabre.?

regards Richard.

 

[calibre792x57.y]

re the pipebacked sword - If the device forming the handguard is a heraldic eagle as I suspect; this will be a Prussian cavalry sword. - Can you put up a photo of the front of the guard.?SW

Edited 24 May , 2019 by calibre792x57.y
clarity

[derekb]

I think the “K” is more likely to be a regimental designation for Kurassier.

regards

D

Edited 24 May , 2019 by derekb
Correct spelling

[trajan]

12 hours ago, derekb said:

I think the “K” is more likely to be a regimental designation for Kurassier.

Hi Derek,

 

You are almost quite right! In fact I had to go back and double check!

 

'K' by itself would indeed normally be for 'Kuerrassier', but here we have it with a 'D', for a 'Division' (although this also used for 'Depot' - and ''Disziplinar-Abteilung'!), while 'K' is also for Kommando', and as there is no squadron number then that "7.K.D.2" mark is for a staff or other administrative unit.

 

And under its 'staff' section, the 1909 Vorschriften ueber das Stempeln der Handwaffen (usually abbreviated to 'DVE. 185') on p.16 gives as specific examples: 'G.K.D.2' and '3.K.D.2' = "Kommando einer Kavellerie Division nebst Feld Verwaltungsbehörden, z.B. der Garde oder der 3.Kavellerie Division, Waffe Nr.2"

 

So, "7.K.D.2" = "7th Kavallerie-Division, nebst Feld Verwaltungsbehörden, Waffe 2"  - "7th Cavalry Division, field administration branch, weapon no. 2". 

 

Best, Julian

 

[derekb]

Thanks Julian, very interesting, I have a few imperial German bits and pieces, amongst them a Kurassier steel pickelhaube, I can’t remember whom it is marked to = 5 Kurassiers I think, I shall have to have a look.

 

Best regards,

Derek.